View Full Version : The "Fans' Rights" Debate
Recently, and I've been noticing this more and more, when posters on this site are complaining about the management and their (lack of) activity on the transfer market, they bring up the point that the club's owners owe the fans a successful team. That Silvio and Uncle Fester, having taken on the burden of owning and managing a team as prestigious as Milan, are now responsible to us tifosi for a certain amount of silverware and success.
There is a compelling argument for this point of view. We, as the fans, watch the matches on TV, spend money on merchandise, and (or at least the lucky ones) go to San Siro to see live the spectacle that is football at the Scala di Calcio. This makes us entitled to see a successful team challenging for every single trophy year after year after year. And when things are not going so well, like right now, we have the right to start petitions, demand players, and threaten protests, etc.
But is this really true? There is no 'Bill of Fans' Rights' anywhere that states 'when the fans feel that the administration of the club that they support is doing in an inadequate job that ensuring the team's success, the fans have the right to demand changes in the policies of the administration' or something along those lines. And I am not applying this only to Milan, to any club, and even forgetting for a moment everything that this management has done for the team (I know that is hard, but bear with me here), keep in mind that football teams are privately owned enterprises. They are not democracies. But at the same time, as I have stated above, we do supply a significant amount of income through ticket sales, merchandise and others.
Its a very interesting topic that I have been thinking a lot about lately. I am not trying to take one side or another here, as I myself am not entirely sure of my position, but I am very curious to see what others think on this issue, and not only with regards to our beloved Milan but to football in general.
I think we need to make a distinction between a Club, and a private team...
Milan is NOT a football club, like Real Madrid is for instance... we don't have "members" who pay their dues and acquire the right to vote and elect a president and therefore, define the policies, or at least, choose from a political proposal from a candidate...
Milan is NOT a public company either... doesn't sell shares in the open market... you can't buy a piece of Milan, like you can with other teams like Juventus...
Milan is a PRIVATE club... owned by Silvio Berlusconi... so we're expectators of this...
we have the right to comment on it as much as we want, but we have no right to demand how it should be managed... it's his money... not ours... we "buy a product" which is Milan's image, something we like/love... and that's our choice...
fortunadtely we're able to express our opinnion, and like any other company selling a product, they like to hear it and adjust their "product" to us, the customer...
Sant and Vadim, I don't have the time to write more (i'm writing a grant due tomorrow and it's 2:00am and I'm still writing). But check this out. Vadim: I encourage you to continue thinking about this as this is no easy debate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_theory
If you want to undrestand more, we can keep discussing it here. CIao for now, - J
Jeff, good luck with your project... I look forward to reading your comments
slifersd
20-03-2008, 04:00
I think before we even start this debate, we need to distinguish complaining and demanding. We the fans are simply complaining about everything, not demanding, because we have no right to demand anything. We are angry at the direction of the club, but at the end the day, it doesn't matter what we say or want because Berlusconi will simply do what he wants to do. It is unfair but that's the truth.
To me, Milan is not a private club. They are never going to be a private club unless every single dollar that is spent on the team comes from Berlusconi. We the fans spend money on tickets, merchandises and pay to watch their games on TV; furthermore, we are the ones who attract the sponsors. Think about it, would BWin write out a check worth tens of millions of dollars a year if nobody was watching Milan's games? I doubt it. Adidas wouldn't exactly sign a huge sponsor deal if they didn't think there will be a lot of fans watching the Milan games and see their logo on the jerseys and therefore will help them promote more sales. A lot of people likes to emphasize that Berlusconi is spending his money to keep the team going; but the truth is that most if not all the funds came from the sponsors, merchandise sales, tickets and television deals, all of which at the end of the day came from the fans. That is why Berlusconi lies to the fans every summer instead of risking pissing the fans off.
Graeme C
20-03-2008, 05:16
Its a good point vadim, If you think Milan has the best turn out of fans per match in Seria A, it would be interesting to see how much income Milan get from Tickets and the overall percentage per season profit.
From the fans point of you, you would expect the team to stay competitive, and for the management to invest in bringing the best players they possibly can to the club. Another way of looking at it, players are tools /Ingredients to the management.
If you go to Gordon Ramsays restaurant you expect all the Ingredients to be fresh, and expect to have a good meal. The management are trying to make meals with stale ingredients.
ACMILAN1983
20-03-2008, 05:31
Its a good point vadim, If you think Milan has the best turn out of fans per match in Seria A, it would be interesting to see how much income Milan get from Tickets and the overall percentage per season profit.
From the fans point of you, you would expect the team to stay competitive, and for the management to invest in bringing the best players they possibly can to the club. Another way of looking at it, players are tools /Ingredients to the management.
If you go to Gordon Ramsays restaurant you expect all the Ingredients to be fresh, and expect to have a good meal. The management are trying to make meals with stale ingredients.
Been watching a lot of kitchen nightmares!! :grinser:
Graeme C
20-03-2008, 05:58
Been watching a lot of kitchen nightmares!! :grinser:
hahaha yeah that was brilliant last night. I love his attitude, his passion for cooking, and the way he isnt affraid of telling people what he thinks.
Eventhough what slifersd is true in principle I agree with SANT
we have the right to comment on it as much as we want, but we have no right to demand how it should be managed... it's his money... not ours... we "buy a product" which is Milan's image, something we like/love... and that's our choice...
We, generalizing us fans, are definitely responsible for the wealth of the club, rich owner alone does not sustain a team if there isn't something in return in direct and indirect terms like buying tickets, merchandise, etc. but like every other case in society the system is not set to respond unless draconian measures are organized. And a relatively losing season does not warrant draconian action, the owner himself should open his eyes and realize his investment is losing credibility and reputation.
Welcome to free-market capitalism and private companies. Berlu has no obligation to anyone to do anything. If people are going to pay certain monies for certain things associated with a team, it is our choice. Is it in the best interests of the company to have a winning team? Of course, because more tickets sold, more merchandise, more sponsorship deals. But at no point does anyone have a 'RIGHT' to demand anything from Berlu. The only thing we have a 'RIGHT' to do is NOT go to the stadium, NOT buy shirts, NOT buy sponsored goods.
If I am a shareholder in a publicly traded company, then I get my vote. Until then, no matter what anyone wants or ideally thinks, we are at the whim of Berlu. If we don't like the product being offered by our team, we go to a different team (fair-weather losers!). But that is the gist of this argument to me.
>>>>>>>>>>> just want to throw a different thought here<<<<<<<<<<<<
can you imagine a discussion of this level on a forum like "Pazza Inter" ???? :argue:
I'm proud of you guys... :1five:
Interesting thought, Vadim. I do believe though that regardless of how a club is owned (private vs public), we as fans do have some "rights" over the club. Of course, they are not the same rights the owner, manager, or coach may have, but they are still "some" rights.
The reason is because we are a part of the organization. Professional football is composed of the club, its management structure, and the fans!! We as fans contribute not only to the ticket sales, but also to foster the spirit of the club. San Siro may sell out, but without the Ultras, there might not be any atmosphere or spirit to show for. So if we the fans are unhappy, I think we have every right (as part of the organization, albeit not an active, decision-making one) to make our grievances heard. Many coaches have been brought in and fired because of fans. Players have been bought and sold because of fans. Galliani has frequent meetings with our Ultras group both the keep abreast of whats going on with the "fans" as well as to disseminate club news.
So in short, we do have rights!!! That is the right to voice our pleasure, displeasure, grievances, and ultimately the right to boycott games, or even change allegiances.
Galliani has frequent meetings with our Ultras group both the keep abreast of whats going on with the "fans" as well as to disseminate club news.
How frequent are these? with what groups in particular? what's your source?
I dont know the exact details. All I know is that it is fairly common practice in Italian football for Ultras groups to have direct links (and in some cases even financial backing) from a club's management. Gio, can you shed some light on this? Am i right, wrong, mis-informed?
Kowalski
21-03-2008, 05:18
A very interesting thread!
I was thinking about this, already said, that Berlusconi has no duties at all towards us fans. That might be true in a strict legal way, even though it doesn’t match reality that well, by reasons of self interest - merchandise, watching games and so on.
With only these two sides in calculation, it can be claimed that supporting Milan (or any team) is a personal affair, like you choose to buy which brand of any product you prefer, with no duties from the manufactures. It’s the basic rule of the liberal market economy, you vote with your wallet.
From this perspective, there is no actual correlation between Berlusconi’s duties and the fans rights. The only duties he got is towards himself and the investors, and the only rights we got is to "buy" the product or not.
But, I wonder if the scenario doesn’t change when another kind of connection is opened up. What I think of is when the president or other central persons asks the fans for their support in a certain game (ex. Kaka before the Arsenal home game).
My thought is that out of this a different relation establishes; Milan wants something from us, which, as far as I can see it, gives us the right to claim something in return.
True or not, this doesn’t say anything of what rights or duties, we and the club has towards each other, so maybe I didn’t solve anything..:)
happy holidays
ps. sorry for bad grammar and those things, I did my best..ds
Blacktop
21-03-2008, 10:52
It's so easy for all of us to sit here and pump out the same old stale posts about how these players should go at the end of the season and who should stay, yadda yadda. It's a good way to get this stuff off your chest, but at the end of the day it doesn't do anything.
If you're pissed at our transfer campaign, the way we're playing, etc., your wallet speaks the loudest any day of the week. We fans have considerably more power than meets the eye.
chock.lee
29-03-2008, 08:07
Milan is a private club and belong to Silvio Berlusconi. This is general problems of most Italian clubs. I think that clubs like company. they must have modern corporate system. it's the trend of football.
Giovanni
29-03-2008, 18:45
I share your analisys on Milan being a private "associazione sportiva". But consider that we can't really say we're just spectators or custumers. Milan is bigger than that. It's not a car or a boat. It's a part of this country sportive history, a symbol of Milan and Italy around the world. You can't quantify these elements in economical terms.
This team belongs to everyone, not just the owner. It's like an art masterpiece, which has an owner (regarding the material item ) but in the meantime belongs to mankind for what concerns its cultural or artistic worth.
If Bill Gates buys Leonardo's Atlantic Code, he can't destroy it just because he's the legal owner. On that item all mankind has an interest, and it belongs to human race as a whole.
What would football be if there weren't fans following it ? Therefore, my conclusion is that leading a club is not a completely private affaire.
If Bill Gates buys Leonardo's Atlantic Code, he can't destroy it just because he's the legal owner.
From a moral stand point, of course not... but legally, as you know, he can literally wipe his a$$ with it... remember the Japanese tycoon who buried himself with a paint... as masterpice, can´t remember which one...
Giovanni
30-03-2008, 15:38
From a moral stand point, of course not... but legally, as you know, he can literally wipe his a$$ with it... remember the Japanese tycoon who buried himself with a paint... as masterpice, can´t remember which one...
The subject is complex. I hope you have a bit of patience to read my post.
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I don't think he could. It depends on the legal systems you consider.
In Italy our Constitution (art. 42 Cost. ) recognise private property, but also says that "laws guarantee it and establish its limits, in order to make it have a social function ".
Art. 41 says : "the economical private activity is free, but it can't be followed against a social utility ".
I knew the episode of the Japanese man, but we must say that many legal systems put big limits to private property.
The model of private property without any limits is typical of XIX century, and its roots must be found in the classic economic theory of Adam Smith and in the rise of individualism in the modern societies.
In the XX century this paradigma of property has been strongly limited by the legislation of modern States, which put big limits to property in every field of the private laws.
In a nutshell, contemporary owners can't do whatever they want with their property (especially for things that have a cultural value ), unless we consider non western countries or countries whose legislation is far from our model. "Individualism" is a social and economical paradigma who has developed just in western countries or in those countries which followed this model. It's an exception, as Karl Polanyi demonstrates in "The great transformation".
The "social function of property" in the italian Constitution shows it: property can't be administrated against a social interest, which is the cultural interest in this very precise case.
Mediolanum
30-03-2008, 21:09
When I read this thread I felt compelled to register and provide my opinion.
Like many have said, Milan is more than a private sporting club. To us fans, it represents a belief, a culture, a hope. We "purchase" this product, and we show our support for this "product" time after time because it represent something more. Players in turn should feel privileged to play for this shirt, priviliged to honor the name, priviliged to put in a good performance and commitment for the fans. Club management, players, coach should honor us and in turn, we shall honor you. The relationship is mutual and if you separate it into a private property/club then you remove the thing we call passion.
Forza Milan.
We have the right to complain and try make our voices be heard, we have the right to not go to the stadium and we have the right to make our demands be heard. But the owner has the last word.
Sometimes I do believe we "over whine" about anything each time something we would want to happen doesn't (like when one single loss or some bad results here and there makes us go all mad and hit the panic botton, or when the team doesn't acquire the players we want eventhough we were near to close the deal), and that's why we aren't running the team (if not we would be the chaos of what Zamparini is) at least I hope no one like that ever runs the team. And I also believe that no one is there holding a gun to our heads to buy tickets and merchandize (we do it cause we want to,at least I believe most of us have done it without thinking it will go to help the team's economical status and we are all well aware that failures happen).
We also have to remeber that Milan is not only a senior football club and that AC Milan's only interest don't rely on football only. Of course the finantial, marketing, even political (can't say Berlusconi hasn't use it in that way) part of AC Milan have most of the time a direct impact with our status in the senior football departement, but sometimes those aspects have to be taken care before the senior football part. I don't know if I explained myself well in this.
Yes, private entities do have to hear their customers demands, and in many cases respond to them (hey after all "the custumer is always right"). But a football team is way more difficult to handle (to satisfy most of its clients) than say Microsoft basically because if Microsoft screws up with one program then the client just returns it and gets a new good program. When a football team screws up (and it will, and it will happen in front of millions of eyes) you can't return it and get a new good one.
Also I like to remark that the management could hear us, buy all the elements we, fans, think we need (at least the ones that most people are in common grounds), we can have a fantastic team, a great coach, wondeful preparation, wonderful bench, great instalations, the best in medical staff that doesn't guarantee success nor lack of crisis.
The model of private property without any limits is typical of XIX century, and its roots must be found in the classic economic theory of Adam Smith and in the rise of individualism in the modern societies.
thanks for such a detailed explanation...
Using Adam Smith's theory, we could only hope that the "INVISIBLE HAND" can correct the problem... :r11:
Although us fans could be qualified as a social group, I doubt we could we perceived as "society".
Giovanni
31-03-2008, 13:42
When I read this thread I felt compelled to register and provide my opinion.
Like many have said, Milan is more than a private sporting club. To us fans, it represents a belief, a culture, a hope. We "purchase" this product, and we show our support for this "product" time after time because it represent something more. Players in turn should feel privileged to play for this shirt, priviliged to honor the name, priviliged to put in a good performance and commitment for the fans. Club management, players, coach should honor us and in turn, we shall honor you. The relationship is mutual and if you separate it into a private property/club then you remove the thing we call passion.
Forza Milan.
That's exactly why Berlusconi a few years ago refused to quote Milan on the Stock Exchange. It would have become an economic administration, losing all the family aura.
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@Sant : i think fans have no "rights" in a technical meaning, but legitimate expectations. These expectations are legitimate because fans are a vital and crucial part of football movement, despite they don't take a formal part to club administration.
Clubs administrate their business without considering fans from a formal point of view, but they definitely do in a substantial way. They consider fans role as a fact that has effects in the football dynamics.
Therefore, we can't talk of a "Fans Statute", although fans voice is nonetheless well recognised and considered by clubs, especially because a big part of club moneys come from the fans.
@Sant : i think fans have no "rights" in a technical meaning, but legitimate expectations. These expectations are legitimate because fans are a vital and crucial part of football movement, despite they don't take a formal part to club administration.
Yep, I agree... now, using the same argument that gives us a right, gives us the power to exercise that right, and that is consumption... and once again, we return to Mr. Smith and to the Law of Offer and Demand... we can't legally force a decision, but we can influence those who can by means of reducing our demand... the problem is, like with the rest of the self regulated market theory, that human nature is not logic, is passional... we will still buy the shirts, and the tickets, and watch the games on TV...
fortunadtely, Milan's managers (Berlusconi, Galliani, Braida, etc.) are all as big fans as we are... and they will also do the best they can to see Milan where it should be. :p283:
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