The "Fans' Rights" Debate

Recently, and I've been noticing this more and more, when posters on this site are complaining about the management and their (lack of) activity on the transfer market, they bring up the point that the club's owners owe the fans a successful team. That Silvio and Uncle Fester, having taken on the burden of owning and managing a team as prestigious as Milan, are now responsible to us tifosi for a certain amount of silverware and success.

There is a compelling argument for this point of view. We, as the fans, watch the matches on TV, spend money on merchandise, and (or at least the lucky ones) go to San Siro to see live the spectacle that is football at the Scala di Calcio. This makes us entitled to see a successful team challenging for every single trophy year after year after year. And when things are not going so well, like right now, we have the right to start petitions, demand players, and threaten protests, etc.

But is this really true? There is no 'Bill of Fans' Rights' anywhere that states 'when the fans feel that the administration of the club that they support is doing in an inadequate job that ensuring the team's success, the fans have the right to demand changes in the policies of the administration' or something along those lines. And I am not applying this only to Milan, to any club, and even forgetting for a moment everything that this management has done for the team (I know that is hard, but bear with me here), keep in mind that football teams are privately owned enterprises. They are not democracies. But at the same time, as I have stated above, we do supply a significant amount of income through ticket sales, merchandise and others.

Its a very interesting topic that I have been thinking a lot about lately. I am not trying to take one side or another here, as I myself am not entirely sure of my position, but I am very curious to see what others think on this issue, and not only with regards to our beloved Milan but to football in general.

I think we need to make a distinction between a Club, and a private team...

Milan is NOT a football club, like Real Madrid is for instance... we don't have "members" who pay their dues and acquire the right to vote and elect a president and therefore, define the policies, or at least, choose from a political proposal from a candidate...

Milan is NOT a public company either... doesn't sell shares in the open market... you can't buy a piece of Milan, like you can with other teams like Juventus...

Milan is a PRIVATE club... owned by Silvio Berlusconi... so we're expectators of this...

we have the right to comment on it as much as we want, but we have no right to demand how it should be managed... it's his money... not ours... we "buy a product" which is Milan's image, something we like/love... and that's our choice...

fortunadtely we're able to express our opinnion, and like any other company selling a product, they like to hear it and adjust their "product" to us, the customer...

Sant and Vadim, I don't have the time to write more (i'm writing a grant due tomorrow and it's 2:00am and I'm still writing). But check this out. Vadim: I encourage you to continue thinking about this as this is no easy debate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_theory

If you want to undrestand more, we can keep discussing it here. CIao for now, - J

Jeff, good luck with your project... I look forward to reading your comments

I think before we even start this debate, we need to distinguish complaining and demanding. We the fans are simply complaining about everything, not demanding, because we have no right to demand anything. We are angry at the direction of the club, but at the end the day, it doesn't matter what we say or want because Berlusconi will simply do what he wants to do. It is unfair but that's the truth.

To me, Milan is not a private club. They are never going to be a private club unless every single dollar that is spent on the team comes from Berlusconi. We the fans spend money on tickets, merchandises and pay to watch their games on TV; furthermore, we are the ones who attract the sponsors. Think about it, would BWin write out a check worth tens of millions of dollars a year if nobody was watching Milan's games? I doubt it. Adidas wouldn't exactly sign a huge sponsor deal if they didn't think there will be a lot of fans watching the Milan games and see their logo on the jerseys and therefore will help them promote more sales. A lot of people likes to emphasize that Berlusconi is spending his money to keep the team going; but the truth is that most if not all the funds came from the sponsors, merchandise sales, tickets and television deals, all of which at the end of the day came from the fans. That is why Berlusconi lies to the fans every summer instead of risking pissing the fans off.

Its a good point vadim, If you think Milan has the best turn out of fans per match in Seria A, it would be interesting to see how much income Milan get from Tickets and the overall percentage per season profit.

From the fans point of you, you would expect the team to stay competitive, and for the management to invest in bringing the best players they possibly can to the club. Another way of looking at it, players are tools /Ingredients to the management.

If you go to Gordon Ramsays restaurant you expect all the Ingredients to be fresh, and expect to have a good meal. The management are trying to make meals with stale ingredients.

Originally Posted by Graeme C

Its a good point vadim, If you think Milan has the best turn out of fans per match in Seria A, it would be interesting to see how much income Milan get from Tickets and the overall percentage per season profit.

From the fans point of you, you would expect the team to stay competitive, and for the management to invest in bringing the best players they possibly can to the club. Another way of looking at it, players are tools /Ingredients to the management.

If you go to Gordon Ramsays restaurant you expect all the Ingredients to be fresh, and expect to have a good meal. The management are trying to make meals with stale ingredients.

Been watching a lot of kitchen nightmares!!

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Been watching a lot of kitchen nightmares!!

hahaha yeah that was brilliant last night. I love his attitude, his passion for cooking, and the way he isnt affraid of telling people what he thinks.

Eventhough what slifersd is true in principle I agree with SANT

we have the right to comment on it as much as we want, but we have no right to demand how it should be managed... it's his money... not ours... we "buy a product" which is Milan's image, something we like/love... and that's our choice...

We, generalizing us fans, are definitely responsible for the wealth of the club, rich owner alone does not sustain a team if there isn't something in return in direct and indirect terms like buying tickets, merchandise, etc. but like every other case in society the system is not set to respond unless draconian measures are organized. And a relatively losing season does not warrant draconian action, the owner himself should open his eyes and realize his investment is losing credibility and reputation.

Welcome to free-market capitalism and private companies. Berlu has no obligation to anyone to do anything. If people are going to pay certain monies for certain things associated with a team, it is our choice. Is it in the best interests of the company to have a winning team? Of course, because more tickets sold, more merchandise, more sponsorship deals. But at no point does anyone have a 'RIGHT' to demand anything from Berlu. The only thing we have a 'RIGHT' to do is NOT go to the stadium, NOT buy shirts, NOT buy sponsored goods.
If I am a shareholder in a publicly traded company, then I get my vote. Until then, no matter what anyone wants or ideally thinks, we are at the whim of Berlu. If we don't like the product being offered by our team, we go to a different team (fair-weather losers!). But that is the gist of this argument to me.

>>>>>>>>>>> just want to throw a different thought here<<<<<<<<<<<<

can you imagine a discussion of this level on a forum like "Pazza Inter" ????

I'm proud of you guys...

Interesting thought, Vadim. I do believe though that regardless of how a club is owned (private vs public), we as fans do have some "rights" over the club. Of course, they are not the same rights the owner, manager, or coach may have, but they are still "some" rights.

The reason is because we are a part of the organization. Professional football is composed of the club, its management structure, and the fans!! We as fans contribute not only to the ticket sales, but also to foster the spirit of the club. San Siro may sell out, but without the Ultras, there might not be any atmosphere or spirit to show for. So if we the fans are unhappy, I think we have every right (as part of the organization, albeit not an active, decision-making one) to make our grievances heard. Many coaches have been brought in and fired because of fans. Players have been bought and sold because of fans. Galliani has frequent meetings with our Ultras group both the keep abreast of whats going on with the "fans" as well as to disseminate club news.

So in short, we do have rights!!! That is the right to voice our pleasure, displeasure, grievances, and ultimately the right to boycott games, or even change allegiances.

Originally Posted by rt9

Galliani has frequent meetings with our Ultras group both the keep abreast of whats going on with the "fans" as well as to disseminate club news.

How frequent are these? with what groups in particular? what's your source?

I dont know the exact details. All I know is that it is fairly common practice in Italian football for Ultras groups to have direct links (and in some cases even financial backing) from a club's management. Gio, can you shed some light on this? Am i right, wrong, mis-informed?

A very interesting thread!

I was thinking about this, already said, that Berlusconi has no duties at all towards us fans. That might be true in a strict legal way, even though it doesn’t match reality that well, by reasons of self interest - merchandise, watching games and so on.
With only these two sides in calculation, it can be claimed that supporting Milan (or any team) is a personal affair, like you choose to buy which brand of any product you prefer, with no duties from the manufactures. It’s the basic rule of the liberal market economy, you vote with your wallet.
From this perspective, there is no actual correlation between Berlusconi’s duties and the fans rights. The only duties he got is towards himself and the investors, and the only rights we got is to "buy" the product or not.

But, I wonder if the scenario doesn’t change when another kind of connection is opened up. What I think of is when the president or other central persons asks the fans for their support in a certain game (ex. Kaka before the Arsenal home game).
My thought is that out of this a different relation establishes; Milan wants something from us, which, as far as I can see it, gives us the right to claim something in return.

True or not, this doesn’t say anything of what rights or duties, we and the club has towards each other, so maybe I didn’t solve anything..

happy holidays

ps. sorry for bad grammar and those things, I did my best..ds