All posts re: the Italian Football Scandal (Moggipoli)

Originally Posted by zZ[-_-]Zz

i don't understand why AEK fans would be angry with Milan... they needed a win to gurantee second spot & qualification... they FAILDED in their own task... and now instead of discussin' how pathetic they were in not beatin' Anderlecht... they try to point the finger on us... and take the easy way out...

and in all honesty... serve them right... they deserved what they got... because they are not capable of qualifyin' due to their own inadpt performances... if they were really that good... do they need the result of our match to decide their own fate?

You're 100% right, but i also feel they are also kinda right to protest. Because...how many times out of 50 will Lille beat Milan at San Siro if Milan plays with at least 50% ?
The most Lille could get at San Siro is a draw, and if Milan and Lille drew, then AEK would have gone through to second phase.
Milan being defeated by Lille at San Siro came as a shock to them, they think smthg fishy was going on, and that's why they protest. They believe with the performances they gave and the results they got, they deserved the second place.

Bit i have a question for AEK fans also !
Would they have beaten Milan and got themselves in a position to fight for 2nd place, if Milan didn't allready secured their qualification before that match in Athens ?
AEK fans are having double standards here, imo !

Originally Posted by Tony29.

Milan's image is ruined, and these kind of matches, like the one against Lille, are a chance for Milan to change world's opinion about them. And now , not only Milan didn't change the opinion, but only made it stronger. The anti-Milan crusade started allready, i believe.
UEFA won't tolerate Italians anymore, and the one(s) who relegated Juve will have a piece of cake job to do the same to Milan one day if the world thinks Milan are cheaters. Not only Italy, but Europe will support him in that !

I frankly couldn't care less if those in whose interest it was for Milan to beat/draw Lille would say about Milan just because we didn't do their job for them.
but you are right, we should care a little more about these things. I know for myself and other Milan fans that we would have all preferred that Milan went out there and showed their best. I am sure that the coach and management also wanted that because they wouldn't have kept the players for who knows how long in the dressing room after the game for Carlo to read them lectures.

the thing is that I believe the team (players) did give their best ON THAT DAY because it's not easy to motivate yourself and stay fully concentrated for game like that ... and in such situations, one may try to give his best all he wants, but it just doesn't work no matter what you do or how hard you try.
not to mention that Carlo played, and not only in that game, several players with injuries just because all his alternatives are out injured, some of them for the rest of the season.

Why do you think he did that? Why do you think he didn't just go out with a 6-7 youth players and openly show the world "We don't care?" He did it because he did care, he did care about Milan's image and wanted his best players available on that pitch - and if kaka wasn't injured, he would have started that game as well, you can bet on that.

And in caring about Milan's image he risked to aggrevate the injuries of some of our players and make his squad even thinner than it currently is. In caring about his image, carlo risked making the players raise their concern about why are they being played even when injured and in meaningless games for Milan at that - you remember what Vieira did when Mancini kept him on the field in the Milan derby?

But did anyone of the AEK crybabies see this? No, all they saw was Milan throwing the game and wondered how much cash we'll get and whatnot simply because we failed to do what THEY were supposed to do.
And for those out there who all they saw was Milan getting paid under the table this last Wednesday, well quite frankly if they are narrowminded enough to think that, I personally couldn't care less what they think on the matter since their opinion on this is of zero value to me (just to make it clear, by saying this, I am not referring to you, Tony ).

In short, Milan players did their best FOR THAT DAY UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES. Was it enough? Well, I guess there is a 90-95 min tape somewhere out there that I guess gives more than a clear answer to this.
But I am not gonna blame them or call them useless pices of junk or whatever some Milan phans or other fans may have called them.

And I am not gonna blame the management and coach for not succeeding in motivating a bunch of tired, semi-injured, and menatlly burned players - given all the pressure there was and there is on them - as if they were about to play a CL final, eventhough they most probably tried (see carlo's reaction after the game and his fielding his best players available, even with many of them injured and tired, instead of fielding just a bunch of never-seen-them, never-heard-them youngsters).


EDIT: Let's not underestimate Lille as a team too. they are a very compact and organized team that plays some really good football and will create problem for any team out there, even if that other team is fully motivated to win. they didn't eliminate ManU last year from CL just because they got lucky, not to mention that they were Lyon's only contender in the French League.

Originally Posted by Tony29.

You're 100% right, but i also feel they are also kinda right to protest. Because...how many times out of 50 will Lille beat Milan at San Siro if Milan plays with at least 50% ?
The most Lille could get at San Siro is a draw, and if Milan and Lille drew, then AEK would have gone through to second phase.
Milan being defeated by Lille at San Siro came as a shock to them, they think smthg fishy was going on, and that's why they protest. They believe with the performances they gave and the results they got, they deserved the second place.

Bit i have a question for AEK fans also !
Would they have beaten Milan and got themselves in a position to fight for 2nd place, if Milan didn't allready secured their qualification before that match in Athens ?
AEK fans are having double standards here, imo !

well, speaking of a double standard, I can't help it but wonder how come no one from UEFA or other "objective" fans out there mentioned the "surprise" of the year - Arsenal and Porto ending in a 0-0 draw.
How come it's only Milan, who's again at the center of all conspiracy theories for throwing games and whatever accusations people came up with after Wednesday's CL round? I might be shooting myself in the leg here but it seems to me it's our Italian heritage ...

Originally Posted by zlatanov

How come it's only Milan, who's again at the center of all conspiracy theories for throwing games and whatever accusations people came up with after Wednesday's CL round? I might be shooting myself in the leg here but it seems to me it's our Italian heritage ...

Lol, you answered your question.

The next few years will be really "fun" for Juve and Milan fans. If Juve's having a penalty kick against them and a red card on every second match in serie B, i can only imagine what will happen when we'll get back in A.
Absolutely the same goes for Milan. Milan will also get their share of "fair calls".
As for Europe. Europeans don't like ex-convicts, and that's what Juve and Milan are.

Originally Posted by Tony29.

You're 100% right, but i also feel they are also kinda right to protest. Because...how many times out of 50 will Lille beat Milan at San Siro if Milan plays with at least 50% ?

out of 50 times? all 50 times if we have secured ourselves top spot in qualification...

as for AEK... they needed a win in their own match... failure... and guess what? Barcelona had the same task... success... and who has qualified? the one that wins their own game without hopin' for the result of another match to decide things...

pfft, let them all say what they want. Their opinions are meaningless as far as I'm concerned. For now we have other far greater issues to focus on than trying to do AEK a favour, so sorry to all those AEK fans, the club, its players and whoever else that wanted AEK through, but right now you're meaningless.

First and foremost we think about Milan.

Well said Dev! Good point too Zlat, and something I was going to mention...wonder how the team that would have benefitted from Arsenal or Porto losing feels with their tame draw?

Everyone knew they would draw the match...yet no whispers about fixing, or money under the table...must be because none of the two teams are Italian...

Sheesh!

I remember that, few months ago, during the calcio scandal, some Italian papers said that if you could combine Italian and Croatinan person you could have a perfect criminal organisation. hahaha! About Milan....Has anyone seen Porto-Arsenal??? I'll just ask you that and now I ask you all who say Milan lost in purpose to shut up! We were beaten by refs against Barca last year, now it looks Barca has been under doping last year.... And Milan is the only criminal club in Europe?? hahaha! The whole UEFA in only a money making mafia circle, nothing more, nothing less. There is no fair play in there, so think about it before talking those chinlish things in public.

I've read the past few posts in response to Tony29's line of argument. Now obviously there is NOT any solid evidence of Milan having anything to do with fixing the match vs Lille at the expense of AEK. Whether we are mitch fixers or not, does it matter anymore at this time? We for a long time will have this stigma attached to us. Also.... had we been in the position AEK is now, would we not be digging in deep for some far stretched reason? A conspiracy? In sentiment, what Tony29 has said has its weight in truth, whether we fix matches or not. Folks outside this club have their minds set in this belief. I wonder why? Could it be that we act in the same manner? Why is it that we never hold ourselves to the standard we expect of other clubs? Why is it that we find it ok to develope conspiracies ourselves yet arrongantly shrug off any such allegedly pointed at us? We also cry foul all the time or point out some other team's circumstances to deflect any criticism with the "Oh what about the Juve-Roman match???" kind of excuse. I would expect that we take in as much as we dish out, but apparently that doesnt seem to be the case.

What a farse! Wheres Milans new reduction?

CONI cuts Reggina penalty Monday 12 December, 2006

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Reggina have had their Calciopoli penalty reduced to 11 points by the Italian Olympic Committee’s Court of Arbitration.

The Amaranto had received a 15-point deduction by the Federal Court sporting tribunal during the summer, as well as a two and a half year ban for President Lillo Foti

They had already tried to appeal that decision in the previous conciliation meeting with the FIGC in October, but had failed to make any progress until now.

The CONI Arbitration confirmed the pundits’ predictions, which suggested that the penalty for the minnows might be brought down to 11 points, granting a four-point reduction.

The discount allows Reggina to move to nine points on the table, leapfrogging Ascoli, who are now in last position.

However, Foti was still not satisfied with the verdict and reiterated the club's innocence in the scandal.

"I am very disappointed with this decision, because I do not believe I was guilty," said the club's owner, who was accused of calling referees' designator Paolo Bergamo in order to obtain favours for his side.

"This is an unfair verdict because Reggina are innocent. In any case we respect the decision, which we cannot consider fair for what the side has shown on the pitch," concluded the official.

The CONI Court also examined Arezzo’s position, but the Serie B side’s appeal failed and the six-point handicap for the 2006-07 campaign was confirmed, leaving the Tuscan outfit in last position with just two points earned so far.

The Arbitration had already met on Monday to discuss the appeal of Lazio chief Claudio Lotito, whose 30-month suspension was reduced to just four months, already expired

Can someone tell me , with facts and proves :

1. Why was Juve relegated ?
2. Why were Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina and Reggina punished ?

But please, serious answers !

Originally Posted by Tony29.

Can someone tell me , with facts and proves :

1. Why was Juve relegated ?
2. Why were Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina and Reggina punished ?

But please, serious answers !

That is exactly the questions that I liked to be answered and the Inter fans with their black and blue glasses on say : OMG you deserved it because Juve and Milan cheated for 13 scudettos they shared between each other and more science fiction. The answer is simple though : there is no proof, period. (don't get me started on the tapes manipulated by Inter Telecom)

Originally Posted by Pireloke

That is exactly the questions that I liked to be answered and the Inter fans with their black and blue glasses on say : OMG you deserved it because Juve and Milan cheated for 13 scudettos they shared between each other and more science fiction. The answer is simple though : there is no proof, period. (don't get me started on the tapes manipulated by Inter Telecom)

Actually mate, i was really looking for an answer to these questions.
I'm sure Moggi did wrong, but i'd like to know what is it ? what was the wrong thing he did and they have proves for it ?
And can those "proves" be rejected from a serious court ?

Because the way i understood Calciopoli, there were absolutely not enough proves for Juve to be relegated, and those proves they had weren't proves for fixing matches at all.

It goes even more for Milan.

There were 38 matches in season 2004/05 and they found only 5 matches where Moggi got the refs he wanted and only 3 matches where Meani got the refs he asked for .

Now, we know they were asking for refs, but if we believe what Bergamo ( the ref designator, the one who they asked for certain refs) says, everybody asked for refs, but it was the draw that decided who'll be the ref, not Moggi or Meani.

So...we have 9 candidates to be refs on Juventus-Messina. Moggi says he wants.... lets say Rossina. And after the draw Juve really gets Rossina.
What were the chances for that to happen ? 1/9 right ?
Out of 38 rounds, isn't it possibile that Meani asked for certain refs 38 times but he got the ones he wanted only 3 times ( or 5 times as it was with Moggi)

And now someone gives us those 3 times Meani asked for refs and got them at the end, which for them is a prove Milan fixed matches.
But what happened to the other 35 times ???
According to Bergamo they were all asking for refs every single round of serie A !!!
Isn't it very possibile that in those 35 rounds Meani was asking for Farina to be the ref on Milan matches but he got Collina, De Sanctis or Rossina instead ?
Why didn't they give us those 35 conversations between Meani and Bergamo ????


I may be wrong and not informed about what the proves for fixing matches were, but i think these tapes where Moggi, Meani and co asked for refs and got them, were the prove they had !


That's why i asked if someone knows what were the proves for fixing matches !

OK, let me put on my glasses:

- i have always said that the true problem in this calciopoli was that clubs and their players were involved because of corrupt "minority", corrupt officials and refs which led to clubs coming down and being suffered along with their fans and players. At first I had this notion that because football is team sport that depends on the whole club including players, fans and officials to act as a unit, and as whole, that's why whenevr for example there are fan riots, the club pays for it along with its fans. When I first heard about the calciopoli I said, Juve you should go down. but now I have a different prespective.

It is unfair to the players and fans to what happened to them, but the club itself has to pay because afterall these are their officials who need to be punished and the scudetto is held by the club itself and the club chose those people to be in this entity, the calciopoli ahs had its focus on the last 2 seasons, yes it opened up the discussions for numerous other seasons in suspicion but the main focus was on 2004/2005 and 2005/2006. The right decision to be taken here is hard because there is no clear right or wrong and as such, I think the FICG did what I thought of, the club as an entity should be punished because it was their individuals who did it, the werid part at first was why Milan left out of the relegation at the very first while lesser charges on Viola and Lazio were seen as good reasons for demotion?


The telephone lines are not false, and those are the key evidence for this whole case, not just because Inter memebers in the board found them then that means there was fabrication and such, those rare why the whole case was presented after the police were tapping the wires from the first place for an investingation, as I understood from particular reports on goal.com and channel4.

Bergamo said there were numerous phonecalls between him and the deceased former Inter president Fachetti, far more than the Moggi and Meani tapes, but no tapes have surfaced of those. Coincidence? Yeah. right. In his opinion calciopoli was steered in a precise direction by someone, of course there is no proof. Interesting to note is that such a statement from the former head of referees comission, backed also by former ref De Santis is not being properly investigated. Since both lost their so called credibility because they got convicted in calciopoli some think they just want revenge, but what if they had nothing to lose anymore? So they just want to tell the whole story?

Calciopoli investigation and trial has been conducted in a theatrical manner, it's outcome was already clear before judgement. The verdicts were in the press and on the street, it was histerical even.

Concerning Milan, we're the only club that had no discount allowed from the first judgement, not a single point... some rumors and speculation even pretend that the CONI arbitration court was pressured by Romani Prodi himself to not grant any gifts to Berlusconi's team.

In fact, there is still plenty to dig into, but the FIGC wants to put this case as far behind them as quickly as possible, because if what would surface is even worse as Calciopoli 1, if evidence should be found of manipulation by more teams, then Italian football will be finished totaly.

It received already very big blows with players now prefereing to play abbroad than to come to Serie A, a new blow and the few we still got will eventualy pack their bags also, so now the FIGC and their witch hunters conviently stfu and pretend they're deaf to Bergamo's declarations.