European v South American football

Originally Posted by drucurl

Also a lot of this discussion is based on the hypothetical. If you are going to discredit each "if" then there is no discussion. I could easily ask "Why have there been no european players that could shine Maradonna's / Pele's boots". You might well replay with an "if" yourself Hence its only normal that I'd make educated guesses as to what might have been if the shoe were on the other foot.

that's where the problem is dru, you support your arguments, most of them, with hypothetical assumptions or as you put it - educational guesses - of what might have been and what might not have been ... call me weird, but in my book a real argument is the one supported by facts not by dreamed out alternatives to reality.
it's one thing to just have a discussion about what things could have been, only if ... and just leave it at that but you are not doing that - you are using these hypothetical thoughts and use them to "prove" a point when your own so called "proof" needs itself to be proven in the first place.

As for shining Maradona's boots and whatnot, that's purely a question of personal opinion ... only in Pele's case one could argue with facts that he is the best and that's mostly because of his WC titles and 1000+ goals but those are titles won and goals scored in a dif time when football was that long gone romantic idea of open and static defenses and midfields with rather unrefined tactics compared to what football has turned into over the past 20-30 years or so.

I for one don't see Yohan Cruyff as inferior to Maradona - every player was at the top in his own era of football, under totally dif circumstances and no logical and objective comparisons/parallels can be drawn between them, although that's what fans just LOVE to do - speculate, favourize, and generalize using their own SUBJECTIVE opinion as "proof".

European football is better

no, South American is muuuuuch better

South American football is a tomato.
European football is brocholi.
I make a great salad enjoying both. Nor can I have one without the other.
Something Mussolini here never understood.

zlat, I have too much work to do this morning..otherwise I'd gladly take you apart.....but keep in mind that by your saying that Maradonna wasn't superior to Cryuff etc you're doing just the same thing as me.

The hypothetical must be employed to compare players of differnet eras.

.....the way how you skimmed through my proof about my statements about Superman (aka Ronaldo )...was also quite good .

So zlat and jim, just kiss and make up already

Originally Posted by zlatanov

no, South American is muuuuuch better

pffft








I don't think i'd want broccoli in my salad .... in a pasta sauce maybe, but not a salad.

Drucurl ... what me and zlat do in our own time is our own business, if we do kiss and make up we won't be doing it in front of an audience

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

I don't think i'd want broccoli in my salad .... in a pasta sauce maybe, but not a salad.

hows this than...
SA footie... tomato
Euro footie.... spinach

makes a great salad and I can have one without the other. sound better to you or do you not like spinach either?

i like spinach and i like broccoli, just not in salads.

Originally Posted by drucurl

zlat, I have too much work to do this morning..otherwise I'd gladly take you apart.....but keep in mind that by your saying that Maradonna wasn't superior to Cryuff etc you're doing just the same thing as me.

exactly, dru, that's why I gave you that example - to show you how stretchy a personal opinion can be when used to "prove" a virtually "unprovable" issue like this ... in the end of the day, such arguments are more a question of subjective opinion than objective truth.
Now I guess we are thinking alike

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

i like spinach and i like broccoli, just not in salads.

Jim, I think in italy they eat spinach salad with some garlic and olive oil and maybe some lemon juice or vinegar for dressing.
if you try it, however, don't hope for a kiss from me

Too tired atm to source all my proof, but I've got almost all ronaldo's goals at cruzerio and at his first year at PSV and YES he WAS lethal in the air. When you look at his Cruzerio scoring record and you watch hoe many came off his head it doesn't take a genius to see that he was proficient at headed goals

I really dont see how coming to Europe could have affected his ability to head a ball? being good in the air requires timing and anticipation and both are fairly natural skills for a striker and it would be difficult to 'unlearn' them.

There is a more plausable alternative though, that being that defences in Europe are simply more organised, particularly in relation to full backs, and are usually more equiped to deal with crosses. I think it is far more likely that instead of Ronaldo getting worse its just a case of the defenses getting better.

I did come back to this thread to respond with the original poster but he appears to have gone quiet after Zlat taught him what it really means to have your post dismantled piece by piece

As for saying that the European teams don't take it seriously, this is just an excuse to cover your humiliation. Every European team that has gone into the world club championship has stated how seriously they do indeed take it, and structure their whole schedule around it and field full strength sides. Manchester United even dropped out of the FA Cup to participate in 2000, and a full strength Man U side got hammered 3-1 by Brazilian champions Vasco da Gama LOL.

LOL?

whats funny is that you think that tournament was treated seriously The club was criticised in England for dropping out of the FA Cup to basically go on holiday, in fact they all came back from their holiday with batteries recharged and it was very helpful to Utd whose refreshed players ended up winning the league that year

Its laughable you weuld use these tournaments to prove South American superiority, it is akin to deciding which is the strongest European league going on Super Cup wins It is telling that you consider it important, it certainly backs up the suggestion that South America takes it more seriously, doesnt it?

Originally Posted by zlatanov

Jim, I think in italy they eat spinach salad with some garlic and olive oil and maybe some lemon juice or vinegar for dressing.
if you try it, however, don't hope for a kiss from me

I prefer my spinach a little wilted, like on a pizza, in pasta or in a curry/side-dish like sag aloo or something.

Seeing as you LOOOOOOOOOVE garlic so much zlat, looks like we'll be made for each other

Maybe South Americans have more raw talent and skills, but Europeans are much better at discipline, tactics, strength, organization. Overall, it must be clear that, as important as South America is to football, Europe is the center of global football, no question about it.

Ahh, lively debate, which I have caught late, but never fear, Warro the Bantan is here!

Ok..that being said...the whole argument, is quite likely to be subjective, as where one side has provided empirical evidence, this is discounted by the other side, usually with intangibles such as: "The European teams never cared about it..." which begs the question: If u arent interested in it, why play? And if u play, dont you give your best as a professional, in your employers kit, to win?

As a Jamaican, and a lover of the S American game, I tend to agree with Il Duce, and drucurl...my European counterparts will differ, and this I expect, and comes as no surprise.

There is no disputing the fact that Europe has the better football infrastructure in general and attracts players from SA in droves, but is this a simply a function of the financial disparity? I think so.

For example: I earn US$40,000 a year playing for River Plate, I am a star, worshipped by my fans, but I can only drive a Honda Accord (albeit a new one). I can go to any major European league, or even a second division team, and earn this per week!! Whats to debate about where I want to play next?

So, apart from the fact that there is more money to be had in Europe, I will also be playing with other "world renowned stars" of the game, such as Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc etc...who all left before me to play where the money is the most.

There tends to be some amount of xenophobia from Europeans with regard to their football..."The UEFA Champions League is the biggest and best club competition in the world", yet the much vaunted and feared Barca lost to Internazionale of Porto Allegro...who are they anyway? Most people outside of die hard football fans probably never heard of this team before!!! Liverpool was "schooled" by...who was it? Sao Paulo? Milan lost to Riquelme´s Boca Juniors, as did Real Madrid with Zidane and Raul I believe. In fact, how long has it been since a European team won the playoff between the two continents? Tony? Zlat? Jim?

If we chose to ignore the statistics, then the argument descends into pure speculation...it is difficult to say that Di Stafano for instance, only improved after he got to Madrid in his 30s!!! Normally waaaaaaay past one´s prime and sell by date...but was it a result of being in immaculate form, or because the players around him were inferior...or was it the better medical facilities etc that allowed him to play at the highest level for such a long time? We will probably never know, even though he is alive, and all that would need to be done is to ask him...

At the risk of being political, Europe´s´advances, from a technological standpoint, due primarily to years of incessant warfare, created nation states, which, with their ability to create weapons (of that time) of mass destruction, were able to carve the rest of the world up between them. Thus the creation of the countries of the "new hemisphere", and the African nations...

What really has changed since? Europe continues to take the best from these countries, and football is no exception, with very little return for these deductions...not that I am disparaging Europe for doing so...its mankinds seemingly inevitable fate for the strong to rule the weak, economically, physically, or anywise.

So, if we look strictly at the empirical data, and leave the geo-historical/political talk behind, South America, has produced, better footballers (generally), won more tangibles, ie trophies, and remains the best production line of talent in the known Universe.

This is my opinion and no amount of dissection, "owning", or anything of the sort will change it...this is all based on over 2 decades of personal experience...

Milanista4ever has made a good point, that "Europe is the center of global football" and there is no denying that...but as to the debate as to who is "better" I have to give the props to SAmerica....

One can like the brainless big kicks, and manic running of the EPL, the tactically sound Serie A, the skillfull La Liga, the lovely melting pot of styles that is the French Ligue Un, or the practical to a fault Bundesliga...but for sheer enjoyment, give me a Boca or River match any day!!

In closing, as a moderator, I should never have typed the 9th paragraph, but felt compelled to do so. Therefore, if anyone feels that it should be deleted, I will be more than happy to do so, (or another mod can) as I am totally aware that it is quite political in nature, but I felt it had to be said, to keep everything in context, but in truth, I think its more historical than political.

And thats my 2 cents.

Warro, I'd edit it, but there are too many paragraphs to find #9

if we were able to overlook another more political line from a previous post in this page, we can surely overlook this one too...

(No, don't scroll up just to find which one I was talking about)...