UCL SF 1st Leg: Manchester United vs. Milan

Originally Posted by hwmook

maldini and bonera has 2 yellow cards, other than that gatusso, ambro, seedorf, kaladze, janku all got 1. Maldini can play the first leg and rest for the second leg.

it's a good thing that Nesta and kaladze are back from injury otherwise we could have found ourselves short on CDs.

From Manu I think Heinze, Evra, Scholes (on a 4th YC) and C. Ronaldo are one YC away from suspension.

At the time of that game at Anfield, there were 10+ games left to play in the EPL with one of them seeing ManU visit Chelski ... with that in mind, 7 pts were far from enough and it was indeed a must win game for manU - and if I am not wrong, manU's current lead over Chelski is quite curiously exactly 3 pts with that game at Stamford Bridge yet to come

It really wasnt seen as must win, a draw would have still kept the result out of Chelseas hands. The lead is cut now because of the defeat to Pompey last week but if we didnt have the cushion i doubt Fergie wouldve sent out Richardson and co for that game.

And as you said, the intensity of rivalry shouldn't be forgotten either - but the same argument works for ManU too ... my point however was that it was Pool who dominated the game - their domination was quite obvious - and that was one of the 2 games vs quality teams manU has managed to win so far in the EPL.

Of course they dominated, they were at home vs their biggest rivals who didnt have to win, it was up to them to take the game to Utd and they tried, but they didnt actually put VDS under much pressure at all. I can only remember 1 decent save he had to make from Crouch.

Anyway, its not like Milan have fared much better vs the top sides in Italy, 2 losses to Inter, and 2 draws, 2 losses to Roma. All in all, domestic form wont count for much in this tie.

All in all, don't get me wrong Steza, I do see ManU as a solid, a very solid team - they wouldn't be on top of EPL and at the SFs of CL if they weren't - but the reason I am going after them is this whole ManU-mania that has overwhelmed fans and "experts" alike after one odd result in that game vs Roma when, if one takes a more sober look at their results vs quality opposition this year, one would be anything but mightily impressed.

Yeah, this is annoying, in fact i said on tuesday night that the same people here usually slamming us English for national bias were themselves hyping Utd beyond anything we'd ever said

The reality is Utd have played well in patches all season but havent ever really had to excel for long periods. Whether they can reach and maintain their highest standards over both games vs Milan remains to be seen.

on a dif note: do you know when Neville, Vidic, Saha, and Park are supposed to be back? I think I read that neville is out for the season, same with Sylvestre, while Vidic had a collar bone broken and may very well miss both Milan ties.

Neville should be back just in time, though he usually needs 2-3 games to get back into the pace of the side and could be exploited if he faces Milan too soon. Saha is supposedly back in a few days, maybe even on the bench tommorow, but that is what they have been saying for 4 months Vidic is the real worry, he could make the 2nd leg but i doubt he'll make the first.

Originally Posted by Stezagud

It really wasnt seen as must win, a draw would have still kept the result out of Chelseas hands. The lead is cut now because of the defeat to Pompey last week but if we didnt have the cushion i doubt Fergie wouldve sent out Richardson and co for that game.

that's what I meant by mentioning the 10+ games left to be played at the time - it would have been unlikely that ManU would pull all wins in their other games and thus render the Stamford Bridge showdown "pointless".

Both ManU and Chelski have more or less the same program with both teams involved on several fronts but Chelski have much more quality in depth than ManU, who are anything but helped by injuries to important players like Neville, Vidic, Saha, and the departure of larsson.

At the same time a look at the Chelski bench makes my head spin - their reserves are probably more expensive than Milan's first team with players like Robben (injured), SWP, Cole, makelele/mikel, Fererra, etc, etc. They can put two more or less equally good teams and this would give them big advantage in fighting for both EPL and CL at the end of the season when players are quite tired.

ManU more than anyone needs to win all their games left considering that Chelski will have the advantage of playing at home in the direct game and a wider bench for the remainder of the season.

Neville should be back just in time, though he usually needs 2-3 games to get back into the pace of the side and could be exploited if he faces Milan too soon. Saha is supposedly back in a few days, maybe even on the bench tommorow, but that is what they have been saying for 4 months Vidic is the real worry, he could make the 2nd leg but i doubt he'll make the first.

with neville coming back and Evra already injury-free, ManU's defense should be just fine considering that Heinze is very good at CD (surprisingly SAF insists on playing him at LB and Brown/O'Shea in CD)

On another note if you think about it, it could be Man Utd vs Chelsea 3 times for 3 cups, the winner could make it a treble (or quadruple in chelseas case). The PL match, FA Cup final and CL Final.

I would take the CL final out of the list of possibilities

Jim: I am sure u agree more with Stez´s assessment of the ratings, but unless I cant count well anymore (never could really, in retrospect) then we do have a slim advantage on paper by Stez´s reckoning..even if I think Neville is no where near the level of Oddo...

If we look at Oddo´s overall contribution this season so far, he is for me, a far better player than Neville...but again, these opinions are just that, and subjective, unless we have some stats to use to compare the players.

IMO Rio is nowhere near Maldini´s class, even at 61, on crutches, Maldini is a better CB...may not be as solid in the air as Rio, but outclasses him in every other department.

Also, lets see how many times Giggs gets past Max...maybe 1 in 5 attempts...only to run into one of our WBs....so as for Giggs being better..well, its not an "apples with apples" comparison is it?

Anyhoo...the formations dont really allow for a player on player analysis in the truest sense...but I maintain my position, that individually, we have better players...though Man U may play better more frequently than we do, as a "team".

i think when you compare ferdinand and maldini, no one would say that ferdinand is the same calibre of defender. But you have to be fair, maldini lacks pace these days and his injuries prevent him from playing consistently.

It would be like saying my porsche that doesn't always start and breaks down is a better car than your ford that is reliant and runs well. Do you see my point?

I absolutely despise neville, but i think he's had a great season and is defensively better than Oddo and offers just as much going forward.

You're right on two fronts, one that it's all subjective (as most things are) and two that there aren't alot of like for like players to make this comparison thing a fair one. We don't really have anyone to compare to Giggs, Ronaldo or Park, they're all out and out wingers. The closest we have is Serginho who's both left wing and left back.

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

I differ with regard to a head to head comparison of Man U and us player for player on paper:

They may have more pace, in more positions, but pace alone does not a ball game win. Their forwards may be better than ours by and large, but they are certainly not superior to our defenders.

So I maintain that they can be beaten, and Milan should be able to do the job.

First of all ACM>>>>>>>MANU
Warro i think it makes more sense to compare the teams tactically than player for player:
-------------VDS---------------
--Evra----Ferdinand---Brown--Heinze
-Ronaldo---Carrick----Scholes--Giggs
---------Saha-------Rooney
subs:
Fletcher
Smith
Park
Solskajer
O'shea
Random GK guy
Richardson



-------------Gila------------
----Seedorf------Kaka-------
---Ambro---Pirlo---Gattuso---
Janku---Bonera--Nesta--Oddo
------------Dida------------

Subs:
Olivera
Maldini
Gorcuff
Kalac
Brocchi/ Cafu
Serginho/Di Gennaro (he's on our Squad list )
Kaladze (??)

This means that Saha and Rooney would have to face our pretty good backline....goals will be hard to come by for sure...but that also means that we will need a particularly defensive midfield (cough*cough* X-mas tree )...to reduce risks comming from outside the box shooting....In Milan this shouldn't be much of an issue but in England, where they are more likely to get the calls/ freekicks we could be in trouble.

Ferdinand is a super defender and I can't see much progress through him from basic attacks...however Seedorf and Kaka could get past him easily as very skillful players often make him look silly.....I see even Gila's silky touches messing with his head The same goes for Brown....actually Brown is the weakspot of ManU...Alot of Barthez's clangers came on the heels of Brown's positional stupidity....I hope Seedorf uses his Cl experience to exploit this.. Vidic isn't there...but Heinze is a solid defender and we won't get past him easily. Kaka and perhaps seedorf are our only hope to get past Henize......however Heinze has a tendancy to be unecesarily rough and with Gila's antice who knows...we just might get a penalty!! Don't know too much about Evra other than he's fast and has a decent shot.


C.Ronaldo....this is where things get ugly lads He is complete...he can and has done it all in terms of attacking and the scary thing is that he's getting better....I knew this kid was going to be a star since he first came to ManU. This year he is by far the best player in the world. Freekicks..headders..long range shots ...goal poaching...corners the kid's got it!!! Plus he has good strength and speed to burn AND he can dribble......don't let people fool you with their drivel that he is a one trick pony!! This kid is almost as good as ronaldinho...we al remember what he did to Nesta not too long ago! I hope we can come up with something to neutralize him!! I certainly can't....other than to ask Gattuso/ Brocchi to pick up a red for breaking his ankles ....maybe we could try to stick Cafu on him...Cafu is accustomed to players of his type I guess. If we do this, we have to provide cover for him as well as whoever is marking CR7 WILL get smoked.

The other thing is that Giggs is now like a mini CR7..so we'll have to keep him wrapped up too.

And now for the good news...ManU are a side that loves to counter attack and play on the wings... most of our attacks are generated in the centre of the pitch..so WE must force them to play our game. I can see Kaka merrily getting past ANYONE from ManU and as such we need to ensure that he has the game of his life against them...even if it means bringing Adriana Lima to his room for some pre-game inspiration

Attacking the goal from distance is a great idea. We can conserve our energy and VDS isn't good with long rangers. Were I Carlo I'd tell Kaka Pirlo and Seedorf to shoot till they got cramps!!! I don't fear anyone's long range shoots from ManU except perhaps Rooney/ Ronaldo..plus Dida is great with these

Originally Posted by drucurl

C.Ronaldo....this is where things get ugly lads He is complete...he can and has done it all in terms of attacking and the scary thing is that he's getting better....I knew this kid was going to be a star since he first came to ManU. This year he is by far the best player in the world. Freekicks..headders..long range shots ...goal poaching...corners the kid's got it!!! Plus he has good strength and speed to burn AND he can dribble......don't let people fool you with their drivel that he is a one trick pony!! This kid is almost as good as ronaldinho...we al remember what he did to Nesta not too long ago! I hope we can come up with something to neutralize him!! I certainly can't....other than to ask Gattuso/ Brocchi to pick up a red for breaking his ankles ....maybe we could try to stick Cafu on him...Cafu is accustomed to players of his type I guess. If we do this, we have to provide cover for him as well as whoever is marking CR7 WILL get smoked.

You might want to join the C.Ronaldo fanclub instead of supporting Milan since you obviously is a huge fan of C.Ronaldo. He is so good at long range shots, headers, freekicks, goal poaching so how many goals has he score in UCL this season? 2 and both against a dead Roma. Definitely a great tally by any means since kaka only score 7 without any assists by his team mates. I almost forgot, a fatty also known as Ronaldo score 2 goals in just 136mins while it take C.Ronaldo 787mins. C. Ronaldo must be the best player on earth, no doubt at all.

You might want to join the C.Ronaldo fanclub instead of supporting Milan since you obviously is a huge fan of C.Ronaldo.

lol, i wondered how long that would take

Dru, while i actually agree with your assessment i darent say it quite like that for fear of being banned from MM for the footballing equivalent of blasphemy

that's what I meant by mentioning the 10+ games left to be played at the time - it would have been unlikely that ManU would pull all wins in their other games and thus render the Stamford Bridge showdown "pointless".

I actually said this at the time in another thread, that the must win games werent the big 2 (Liverpool and Chelsea) but the smaller games. As long as Utd won those then the league was ours no matter what happened in the other 2 games. The Liverpool win was a bomus that basically let Fergie risk a weakened side against Pompey to keep players fresh for Roma, if we had lost to Liverpool the team would have been stronger, at least from the start.

Originally Posted by Jim_UK

i think when you compare ferdinand and maldini, no one would say that ferdinand is the same calibre of defender. But you have to be fair, maldini lacks pace these days and his injuries prevent him from playing consistently.

It would be like saying my porsche that doesn't always start and breaks down is a better car than your ford that is reliant and runs well. Do you see my point?

I absolutely despise neville, but i think he's had a great season and is defensively better than Oddo and offers just as much going forward.

You're right on two fronts, one that it's all subjective (as most things are) and two that there aren't alot of like for like players to make this comparison thing a fair one. We don't really have anyone to compare to Giggs, Ronaldo or Park, they're all out and out wingers. The closest we have is Serginho who's both left wing and left back.

I would give you the neville oddo comparison on this but ferdinand better than maldini? you got to be kidding, Maldini lack the pace nowaday but you don't need to be sprinter to be a good central defender. I haven't seen any kind of pace from Nesta, cannavaro etc but they are still great defenders, the key is timing the tackles and reading the game. Ferdinand clearly lack that, he always look uncomfortable or silly as somebody put it whenever a skilful dribbler get near him. He would either concede a penalty or get carded when playing against somebody like kaka or risk conceding a goal. Let's just say i am more impressed with bonera than ferdinand.

Originally Posted by Stezagud

lol, i wondered how long that would take

Dru, while i actually agree with your assessment i darent say it quite like that for fear of being banned from MM for the footballing equivalent of blasphemy

Of course, i expect nothing less coming from a die hard Man U fan.

Jim: I am sure u agree more with Stez´s assessment of the ratings, but unless I cant count well anymore (never could really, in retrospect) then we do have a slim advantage on paper by Stez´s reckoning..even if I think Neville is no where near the level of Oddo...

I think it came out even, though i honestly didnt plan that to happen

If we look at Oddo´s overall contribution this season so far, he is for me, a far better player than Neville...but again, these opinions are just that, and subjective, unless we have some stats to use to compare the players.

Neville is Utds captain and as Jim says is not only stronger defensively than Oddo but at least as effective going forward. It often gets overlooked just how many overlaps he does for Ronaldo, and how much he gets forward, though he is the only outfield player to have not scored for Utd this season!

IMO Rio is nowhere near Maldini´s class, even at 61, on crutches, Maldini is a better CB...may not be as solid in the air as Rio, but outclasses him in every other department.

Rio suffers alot in the eyes of critics because he makes things look so easy, maybe in 10 years he'll be reassessed properly but right now it seems a lot of people look at his price tag and cant see beyond it.

Also, lets see how many times Giggs gets past Max...maybe 1 in 5 attempts...only to run into one of our WBs....so as for Giggs being better..well, its not an "apples with apples" comparison is it?

its not really a fair comparison but they will clash on the field as Giggs will become a 3rd central midfielder for Utd at times.

Of course, i expect nothing less coming from a die hard Man U fan.

true, but Drucurl is 100% Milan, he just doesnt have the insecurities of some who would rather pretend that Utd are made up of overrated chumps who somehow fluke their way into these tournaments

I genuinely wouldnt want to see it but if Ronaldo is firing on all cylinders on the night he is capable of tearing Paolo to shreds

the key is timing the tackles and reading the game. Ferdinand clearly lack that

You really havent seen Utd play much have you, he is renowned as the best in England at doing that, they were calling him the new Bobby Moore when he was only 17 years old because his anticipation was so good even at that age

he always look uncomfortable or silly as somebody put it whenever a skilful dribbler get near him. He would either concede a penalty or get carded when playing against somebody like kaka or risk conceding a goal. Let's just say i am more impressed with bonera than ferdinand.

I suggest you look up the stats on how many penalties Rio concedes and how many bookings he had in his career. To my knowledge he averages 1-2 yellows a year, which is astonishingly low for a central defender. The reason for that is of course his ability to read the game and tackle cleanly, not that you believe he can do that