Summer Mercato

Originally Posted by GeoTav

From your point of view, if the coach thinks the team isn't good enough, he should leave ? Is it that or did I missunderstand ?

If it's what you mean, wow ... I know a lot of coaches who should leave their clubs !!

And anyway, Ancelotti's role is coach, not manager ... it's Italy (it's the same in France, maybe in Spain too), not England where coaches are generally managers too and so they choose which players they have to buy.

PS: If I've missunderstood, I will have made this whole post for nothing lol ...

You understood perfectly. But I should have elaborated. If he doesn't think the squad isn't good enough for the targets set. We are Milan, the biggest club in the world. Real who? We expect Milan to win a title every year. OK it can't happen every year, but if we have a coach that doesn't think he has the material to do it, it will definitely not happen. I also support a smaller team here in the Netherlands and their target is not to relegate. We also lose our best players. Just like Lille, but that's just reality of economics. Different teams, different budgets, different targets.

So bottom line, if the coach doesn't think he has the right material for the club and targets in question, he should resign.

About coach/management; I think a coach should demand specific kind of players like a tall forward or an attacking back. The management should then get these players, but players that fit the club. Fit the history, fit in our family. They have to manage the whole picture over the years, what kind of club we are. Simple example players like C. Ronaldo and Zlatan really don't fit the bill, arrogant bastards. Players like Messi or Van Nistelrooy, humble players. Would fit great in our family.

So where is this 4-4-2 dream team of yours

Originally Posted by Giovanni

I've read that many bashed some of our previous market target, such as Lloris or other players.

I'd like to post a fable:

The Fox and the Grape - by Aesop

A hungry Fox saw some fine bunches of Grapes hanging from a vine that was trained along a high trellis, and did his best to reach them by jumping as high as he could into the air. But it was all in vain, for they were just out of reach: so he gave up trying, and walked away with an air of dignity and unconcern, remarking, "I thought those Grapes were ripe, but I see now they are quite sour."

You're dead on!!!

Juve fans could feel the exact same way about Flamini...and at least Lloris didn't go to another team within Italy.

Originally Posted by Giovanni

I've read that many bashed some of our previous market target, such as Lloris or other players.

I'd like to post a fable:

The Fox and the Grape - by Aesop

A hungry Fox saw some fine bunches of Grapes hanging from a vine that was trained along a high trellis, and did his best to reach them by jumping as high as he could into the air. But it was all in vain, for they were just out of reach: so he gave up trying, and walked away with an air of dignity and unconcern, remarking, "I thought those Grapes were ripe, but I see now they are quite sour."

Is the grape is really ripe? Lloris is still far from ripe I think

I am not against his transfer as he is cheap and looks having talent. But I won't regret if he didnt come as he is still only 'the next Buffon', 'the next WC GK' etc as labelled to Gourcuff 'the next Zidane'. If we lost fighting a player like Drogba, Ronaldinho, etc to other big clubs, then I won't be happy as these players are truely ripe.

There's no reason to be pessimistic (YET) guys. Let the other teams do their shopping, we will do our shopping. I dont think Lloris was our number 1 indispensible target anyways---he was probably one of our targets for the GK position. If it didnt work out, so be it----it's not like we have lost out on Buffon or something.

As for the Torres debate, it is all hindsight. He is probably doing well at Pool because of Benitez---who's to say he would have done well in Italy under Carlo? I'm sure Gourcuff would develop into a world class midfielder if he was given some time at Arsenal under a manager like Wenger. End of the day, it just depends on whether a player can or cannot fit into the environment. That's what managment have to do---identify which players can fit into Milan and make us a better team, not go round buying player x or player y due to name, fame, etc...I think we've done that and learnt an important lesson.

Originally Posted by Siregar

I think your numbers are not that right.

About Pato's price, many websites said it's 15 mil pounds (around 20 mil euros), other websites said 10 mil pounds (around 15 mil euros).

About Torres, I forget his price (which news website said) but I am sure it's not 20 mil euros (or even 20 mil pounds). What I am sure, his price according to many sites was much higher than 20 mil pounds (higher than around 30 mil euros).

So, there are big difference between Pato's price and Torres' price.

I know Pato was much younger BUT what you haven't mentioned is that Pato was EXTREME famous in that time Milan brought him. It's different with Torres. Every year there were interests from many clubs since he was 17 years old (his 1st season with Atletico CMIIW) but nothing happened every year till he's transfered by Liverpool (years after gossips were surrounding on Torres) but not with Pato.

Since he played in Worl Club Cup against Barca in 2006, big clubs chased him and the peak interests from these clubs was last summer and Milan was lucky to have his signature (even with pretty high price for such young talent).

So, the point is Pato had more talent than Torres with respect what Pato had done in his very young age. I dont want to discuss about Pato and Torrest talents here, I only want to stress that what Pato did was really good in such young age while on the other side what Torres had done with Atletico from year to year especially near his last year in Atletio had no big improvements.

Whoops, I did misread the article I read. It sounded kind of weird to me too that Torres was sold for such a low price. My bad on that.

I think you are way over evaluating Pato's accomplishment before his transfer here. To me, Pato was just like Torres about five years ago in that they are both just very young great talents and haven't proved anything really. On Wikipedia, it says that Pato scored 6 goals in 10 games for Internacional in his first season playing for the first team before we signed him. Although the rate of scoring was impressive, the fact that he only played 10 games pretty much tells you how young and not ready he is for a big club such as Milan. He had enormous hype surrounding him after that season, quite like Torres has been for the last half a decade.

By last summer, Torres was much more of a proven commodity than Pato. Sure, he wasn't exactly tearing it up in La Liga like many hoped he would, but he wasn't exactly terrible either. A striker can do worse than 82 goals in 214 apperances. Although his goal scoring record could get better, the talent was there for Torres. The only reason he didn't transfer to other teams was because Atletico Madird didn't want to let him go and he was very loyal to his home team.

And this part is for hwmook:
If you want to talk about how Torres wouldn't fit in in Serie A because of the physical defenders he will have to face on a nightly basis, then you should probably look at Pato's physique first. Pato is skinny like a 15 year old middle school kid while Torres is much bigger. If anyone is going to struggle against physical defenders, Pato would be the first on that list.

I think you made a very interesting comparison between Gilardino and Torres. Sure, the Gilardino experiment bombed for us big time, but that doesn't mean we should just stop trying. If that's the case, then we should just stop signing players altogether. Hell, why even try to sign anyone when there is a chance that he is going to fail? Great players cost money, a lot of money. So if you want quality, you will have to pay big to get it. Always cheaping out has been the problem for this management for years. In soccer, you have to take gambles. Some will pay off and some won't but if you simply stop trying, you will end up going absolutely nowhere.

Originally Posted by slifersd

Always cheaping out has been the problem for this management for years. In soccer, you have to take gambles. Some will pay off and some won't but if you simply stop trying, you will end up going absolutely nowhere.

Not sure if this paragraph is for me, but I wonder how 'cheaping out' is the case for a management that is willing to spend $24M for Pato, a guy who, as you mentioned earlier, has an impressive record of scoring but is yet to be totally proven?

Originally Posted by slifersd

Whoops, I did misread the article I read. It sounded kind of weird to me too that Torres was sold for such a low price. My bad on that.

I think you are way over evaluating Pato's accomplishment before his transfer here. To me, Pato was just like Torres about five years ago in that they are both just very young great talents and haven't proved anything really. On Wikipedia, it says that Pato scored 6 goals in 10 games for Internacional in his first season playing for the first team before we signed him. Although the rate of scoring was impressive, the fact that he only played 10 games pretty much tells you how young and not ready he is for a big club such as Milan. He had enormous hype surrounding him after that season, quite like Torres has been for the last half a decade.

By last summer, Torres was much more of a proven commodity than Pato. Sure, he wasn't exactly tearing it up in La Liga like many hoped he would, but he wasn't exactly terrible either. A striker can do worse than 82 goals in 214 apperances. Although his goal scoring record could get better, the talent was there for Torres. The only reason he didn't transfer to other teams was because Atletico Madird didn't want to let him go and he was very loyal to his home team.

I agree with you. What I dont agree with Torres' transfer last year was only Torres' price. His price in that time was too expensive IMO.

Wow, in the absence of any real rumors of substance, the conversation has gone all philosphical...


Nice.

That shows we don't need you to be here in order to engage in stimulating conversation!

Just kidding .

Originally Posted by Jeff

Not sure if this paragraph is for me, but I wonder how 'cheaping out' is the case for a management that is willing to spend $24M for Pato, a guy who, as you mentioned earlier, has an impressive record of scoring but is yet to be totally proven?

That was a great signing by all measurements. But I think we also shouldn't be forgetting that the management pretty much had to make that deal. We signed two players, Pato and Emerson last summer, and Emerson was a last second signing. Now if you can imagine that team not getting any player whatsoever from the mercato and the fans wouldn't start a riot against the management, then you must be high. They had to make a deal and they chose the cheapest option available at the moment instead of splashing out on a real superstar. Don't get me wrong, I think Pato is a good player, but he is not yet in the same class as guys like Drogba, Eto'o, Henry, and Ibrahimovic. As far as what I said about Pato's scoring record goes, this is what I meant. He had an impressive scoring record in 10 games played. That hardly makes him a proven commodity. Having a few good games is easy compared to having a good season or career.

Originally Posted by Siregar

I agree with you. What I dont agree with Torres' transfer last year was only Torres' price. His price in that time was too expensive IMO.

You know what? I think Torres' price was a bit high myself. But that doesn't change the fact that we still should have signed him. A guy like Torres is worth the kind of money they paid for him because his production level is high enough and his value will only go up as time goes by. Even at the price Liverpool paid for him, this investment was still very much worth it. At the end of the day, a team Milan's caliber needs high quality players, regardless of their actual prices.

What you say about Pato is completely off. Why would we buy an 18 year old prospect with no European experience just to please the fans? We could have bought any so-called "established" striker for that sort of money. We bought Pato because our coach and scouts believed in him and felt that he was worth the money.

And believe me a club like Milan does not have to buy star names just to please the fans every summer---we are not a circus, we are a football club. As long as we win trophies, the fans will be happy, even with 40 year old Maldini still playing. Now once we stop winning, things need to be done to continue the cycle, and that's exactly what's happening. I don't see what the problem is.

the world of Galliani

“Reinforcements? Don’t worry, Milan will have a very competitive squad.”


so you all can just relax, and hope he aint bullshyting us

Originally Posted by slifersd

You know what? I think Torres' price was a bit high myself. But that doesn't change the fact that we still should have signed him. A guy like Torres is worth the kind of money they paid for him because his production level is high enough and his value will only go up as time goes by. Even at the price Liverpool paid for him, this investment was still very much worth it. At the end of the day, a team Milan's caliber needs high quality players, regardless of their actual prices.

Sorry, for me he was not worth for that mount of money. It would be so risky for Milan to buy a striker who couldn't proved that he was really talented as media talked about. It's already years (4?, 5? or 6? years he had been in Atletico) but he didnt showed big improvement in his performance with Atletico.

So, what Liverpool paid for Torres was overpriced IMO (of course in that time). That Torres has been doing well with Liverpool is another case.

Originally Posted by payne

so you all can just relax, and hope he aint bullshyting us

You tell us to relax but you are not yet relaxed.