Euro 2008 (include all discussions)

MLM: I don't agree and will have to disagree with you on that one. Zambrotta admitted the mistake he made, and almost immediately fixed his playing. It was miscommunication. Either way, Italy played a much improved game, and Panucci himself was improved from the last because he had more confidence with the defenders. Both Barzagli and Materazzi were watching from the benches where they belong.

Our defense, while not perfect, was pretty good... it could do some improving but I did not expect all that much because morale was low. I was surprised the attack was the way it was... and it was our luck we didn't win. Again, the referee ruling against a perfectly legitimate goal, and making numerous other biased calls against us. They gave us problems themselves and we had to play with that.

I think your criticizing of Zambrotta is quite uncalled for. And besides that one mistake Mutu scored off of, I didn't see any other major mistakes from any of the other players.

One goal can make the difference. It can change the posterity of a match. You cannot tell me I can't be moaning. That's totally flat out ridiculous. We all know if Italy was allowed that LEGITIMATE goal, Romania would have attacked more thus expose themselves to counter attack, and we could have got a second. Romania by the way did not do their job perfectly... their defense was shoddy at best... their goalkeeper saved them.

So saying that romania did the job good is just flat out wrong. And the referees helped them and their playing.

And let me tell you some of the bad Romanian players... Rat and Petre were horrible... absolutely horrible. Petre especially... there is not doubt about that.

Either way, you can't sit there denying that goal wouldn't have made the difference, because it could have. Italy was better both offensively and defensively, hands down. You know a disallowed legitimate goal, a dubious penalty kick decision... this all sounds familiar... and peoples refusal to look at the facts.

As far as I'm concerned, Romania should count themselves lucky they got a point. They played terribly, and besides Mutu I saw nothing in any of their squad. Nothing worthy at all. And if we were as lucky as the Dutch, we would have concluded this match 2-1 or 3-1, or even 4-1.

This will go down as one of the WORST Euro cups in history.

Giancarlo: i DID said that Panucci had a good game despite of his mistakes. and Zambrotta also had a good game despite his mistake. i just said i rather to see the likes of Toni, Alex and Cassano waste the chances than one single mistake made by our defenders. one crucial mistake could make the defence looks awful. and if i'm not mistaken the PK was a contributed from Panucci (despite it was controvercy or not). you could say that dissalowed goal by Toni could makes a difference for the result (which is i think that Toni's goal should be allowed because he was onside) and in my opinion so does the crucial mistakes by Panucci (i wont discuss the PK was a right decision by referee or not) and so does a mistake by Zambrotta. if Mutu scored from that PK than Italy is packing to go home now.that's all. actually if there were no mistake by them it was a progress performance for Italian side. specially with Grosso and Chiellini

as for Romanian players. i never said that Petre was good. he was awful actually. he was beat many times by our mighty Grosso but i didnt think the same way with Rat. he did many contributions (if could say many from a few Romania's chances) for helping the attacks.

anyway it isnt a bad Euro in all history. just look for the other teams. Holland is amazing while Spain is rock so did Portugal. and i tell you what this might be the best Euro too considering Steven Gerard and co watching this Euro in front of TV

Originally Posted by MLM

Giancarlo: i DID said that Panucci had a good game despite of his mistakes. and Zambrotta also had a good game despite his mistake. i just said i rather to see the likes of Toni, Alex and Cassano waste the chances than one single mistake made by our defenders. one crucial mistake could make the defence looks awful. and if i'm not mistaken the PK was a contributed from Panucci (despite it was controvercy or not). you could say that dissalowed goal by Toni could makes a difference for the result (which is i think that Toni's goal should be allowed because he was onside) and in my opinion so does the crucial mistakes by Panucci (i wont discuss the PK was a right decision by referee or not) and so does a mistake by Zambrotta. if Mutu scored from that PK than Italy is packing to go home now.that's all. actually if there were no mistake by them it was a progress performance for Italian side. specially with Grosso and Chiellini

Actually if that goal was allowed it could have altered the way the second half went, and would have forced Romania to push forward thus leaving their back exposed... even an Italy not in good condition could exploit that. In essence, the score should have been 1-0 at the half... the ref made an absolutely horrendous decision saying it was off side. And in all honesty, I did not see any "crucial mistakes" made by our defense, beyond the one by Zambrotta. There were some things that should have been done differently, but if the score was 1-0, I think things would have been different.

Mutu should have NEVER had a penalty kick to begin with. That's a fact.

anyway it isnt a bad Euro in all history. just look for the other teams. Holland is amazing while Spain is rock so did Portugal. and i tell you what this might be the best Euro too considering Steven Gerard and co watching this Euro in front of TV

It's awful. I'm more interested in the next season for Milan, and who we are going to sign as a forward. Holland has more holes in their defense than Italy... and were absolutely torn apart by France in parts of that game. France's inability to finish was their downfall. Trezeguet wasn't there... Mexes wasn't there, Frey wasn't there... Coupet and Thuram were on the field and they are bad.

And onto the other game... Oh god... if you think Materazzi was bad the other day... you should look at Thuram. Oh. My. God. He has to RETIRE. My question is this... Mexes is a center back, Thuram is a center back... Mexes had a wonderful season scoring once winning the Coppa with Roma and is an ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL player... one I would just want on Milan's team. Thuram had a terrible season with Barcelona and an awful game against Holland... why was Thuram playing? He made Materazzi look young and fast.

And while I like Spain... I wish them the best. They should win the whole thing...

Jeff, you have some good points I admit. France and Italy both created chances against Holland, it was actually a penalty for Frnace ysterday with a hand ball ( aldough Van Nistelrooy's goal against Azzury wasnt offside, I've heard an explanation and its quite long, but its not an offside by official rules due to a player that has been knocked by Buffon and so on...).. But the fact is that, aldough Holland sufferend, which is normal as France and Italy are top teams, they scored SEVEN goals to them. And those things tond happen by accident.

On Robben substitute. I wonder how many coaches would change DM's for RObben against France at 1:0 up? noone.

France-Italy I cant wait and I dont know all the combinations of possible results so I have to look at it to know what to expect who goes through. But Romania played Holland twice so far and won once and drew once. Holland is qualified, but that doesnt mean a thing, I expect Holland win.

Also I dont understand why Govou play in front of Benzema, and even Gomis! And Toulalan in front of FLAMINI! Domenech has gone crazy 200%.

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

Actually if that goal was allowed it could have altered the way the second half went, and would have forced Romania to push forward thus leaving their back exposed... even an Italy not in good condition could exploit that. In essence, the score should have been 1-0 at the half... the ref made an absolutely horrendous decision saying it was off side. And in all honesty, I did not see any "crucial mistakes" made by our defense, beyond the one by Zambrotta. There were some things that should have been done differently, but if the score was 1-0, I think things would have been different.

Mutu should have NEVER had a penalty kick to begin with. That's a fact.

lol.. Giancarlo, you are playing with the IF word. that IF case is surely your scenario for Italy if Toni's goal is allowed. but the truth is you will never know what will trully happens even if Toni's goal is allowed. i could create my own IF for Toni's dissalowed goal too. how about fine.. Toni's goal is allowed like you asking for then after that Italy gets the heat and try to attack to add another goal which is we all knew that Italy better win this game (fact) then Italy couldnt score considering the mighty performance by Lobont (fact), then 2 good counter attacks which was Romania got the chance most of them from the counter attacks or free kicks last night (fact) makes Romania wins the game and by now i'm writting this post to you, Toni and friends are opening their suitcase and yelling each other: "guys did you see my underwear?" .. they just packing because Italy sending home right now (fact IF my scenario works well ). see.. i provided much facts for you which is make the possibility to becoming true is higher than your scenario. so stop picturing: IF ONLY...

but my opinion is base on fact. when Zambrotta did a bad mistake like it was 100% a benefit for Romania. and when Panucci contributed to the PK it was almost a victory for Romania. that's fact. and what makes the difference with current condition just LUCK. it was luck for Italy that Mutu had an awful PK so Italy safe.... for now stick in the head that Italian defence was progress but DID a few fatal mistakes.

Holland has more holes in their defense than Italy... and were absolutely torn apart by France in parts of that game. France's inability to finish was their downfall. Trezeguet wasn't there... Mexes wasn't there, Frey wasn't there... Coupet and Thuram were on the field and they are bad.

i suggest you to watch the game last night once again. Boulahrouz and friends were good beside inability from French players.

And onto the other game... Oh god... if you think Materazzi was bad the other day... you should look at Thuram. Oh. My. God. He has to RETIRE.

And while I like Spain... I wish them the best. They should win the whole thing...

but on this sentences i agree with you

Italy was improved from the Holland match, but "we" still lack the ability to create chances without crosses from the vings. I'm amazed that Toni hasn't scored yet (a goal that counted that is).

Donadoni has alot to fix before the france game, but there's always hope!

Originally Posted by MLM

lol.. Giancarlo, you are playing with the IF word. that IF case is surely your scenario for Italy if Toni's goal is allowed. but the truth is you will never know what will trully happens even if Toni's goal is allowed. i could create my own IF for Toni's dissalowed goal too. how about fine.. Toni's goal is allowed like you asking for then after that Italy gets the heat and try to attack to add another goal which is we all knew that Italy better win this game (fact) then Italy couldnt score considering the mighty performance by Lobont (fact), then 2 good counter attacks which was Romania got the chance most of them from the counter attacks or free kicks last night (fact) makes Romania wins the game and by now i'm writting this post to you, Toni and friends are opening their suitcase and yelling each other: "guys did you see my underwear?" .. they just packing because Italy sending home right now (fact IF my scenario works well ). see.. i provided much facts for you which is make the possibility to becoming true is higher than your scenario. so stop picturing: IF ONLY...

I have nothing more to say about this. If you're gonna say that the goal being disallowed is fine because the referee said so... well... whatever. Italy outplayed Romania offensively and defensively... but we lacked luck in finishing. It still should have been 2-1. You provided me some opinions and I have nothing further to say about this, but to look forward to the next games. This isn't about hypotheticals. This is about clear abuses in the referee system that need to be rectified. I really hope that Italy (the FIGC) takes legal action.

By the way if the goal was allowed, Romania would have pushed forward more and left holes in their defense ( FACT!)

Romania didn't come close to scoring in those two chances no matter which way you want to put it.

I don't agree with you at all. So this is going nowhere. Romania didn't outplay Italy, and they basically sat back and defended... and only attacked rarely.

Your statements are not facts, but opinions.

but my opinion is base on fact. when Zambrotta did a bad mistake like it was 100% a benefit for Romania. and when Panucci contributed to the PK it was almost a victory for Romania. that's fact. and what makes the difference with current condition just LUCK. it was luck for Italy that Mutu had an awful PK so Italy safe.... for now stick in the head that Italian defence was progress but DID a few fatal mistakes.

No they aren't. I've seen more errors in that Romanian defense than the Italian one. That PK was illegitimate. Stop trying to dodge the issue. Something illegal is going on with referees in this tournament and you know it. Romania should have never had a PK call in their favor. And many set pieces that Romania may have had were based on bad refereeing.

i suggest you to watch the game last night once again. Boulahrouz and friends were good beside inability from French players.

I did watch and I don't need lecturing. My posts are clearly my opinion.

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

I have nothing more to say about this. If you're gonna say that the goal being disallowed is fine because the referee said so... well... whatever. Italy outplayed Romania offensively and defensively... but we lacked luck in finishing. It still should have been 2-1. You provided me some opinions and I have nothing further to say about this, but to look forward to the next games. This isn't about hypotheticals. This is about clear abuses in the referee system that need to be rectified. I really hope that Italy (the FIGC) takes legal action.

By the way if the goal was allowed, Romania would have pushed forward more and left holes in their defense ( FACT!)

Romania didn't come close to scoring in those two chances no matter which way you want to put it.

I don't agree with you at all. So this is going nowhere. Romania didn't outplay Italy, and they basically sat back and defended... and only attacked rarely.

Your statements are not facts, but opinions.



No they aren't. I've seen more errors in that Romanian defense than the Italian one. That PK was illegitimate. Stop trying to dodge the issue. Something illegal is going on with referees in this tournament and you know it. Romania should have never had a PK call in their favor. And many set pieces that Romania may have had were based on bad refereeing.




I did watch and I don't need lecturing. My posts are clearly my opinion.

dont be so bitter. i never said that Italy had no progress and that goal is clearly dissalowed. it was onside like i said before so it should be allowed. so dont make your own story about my dissagrement to that goal. and i am like you, hoping for Italy to go to the next round. but the difference is instead of blamming of referee i am hoping Italy will doing a good job in the next game and qualify from this group. and it is your opinion when you said Romania did nothing to held Italy. Italy was progress but in my opinion Romania did a good job to held them too. no reply is needed because i am going home from office. and i have to pay my over limit time to playing internet today to my office

Originally Posted by t.gianni

Holland were very very lucky to score the goals by Robben and Sneijder. They are a beatable team. Their defense is anything but good. Lets see where Holland goes once they reach the knock-out stages.

I am not undermining the display by the dutch team but their recent success has a lot of luck in it. Their defense has yet to be tested by a good and stable team.

Now lets hope Romania don't beat Holland and France plays just as bad as they did today, against us.

Luck? Haha.. very funny my friend

If there is a Football's Attacking Course 101 then the goals the Holland scored so far in this tournament deserve to be the required reading. Their counter attack is like a PlayStation build-up, look at van Persie's goal last night, or Sneijder's against Italy after a satellite-guided long cross from their own half and a header from Kuyt.

And Sneijder's goal last night is a gem, yet again a deadly counter attack followed by a beautiful turn, and as an icing on the cake, a powerful accurate cannon ball.

Their defense has yet to be tested by a good team. Well, then I think from your statement I can assume that Italy is NOT good enough. Heck, on second thoughts, considering the way they're conceded 4 goals, I must say that their defense sucked, BIG time sucked!

I mean how more pathetic can it be for a reigning WC champions to expect their next opponent to play just as bad as they did last night in order to qualify. LOLL...

Originally Posted by mrki

Jeff, you have some good points I admit. France and Italy both created chances against Holland, it was actually a penalty for Frnace ysterday with a hand ball ( aldough Van Nistelrooy's goal against Azzury wasnt offside, I've heard an explanation and its quite long, but its not an offside by official rules due to a player that has been knocked by Buffon and so on...).. But the fact is that, aldough Holland sufferend, which is normal as France and Italy are top teams, they scored SEVEN goals to them. And those things tond happen by accident.

On Robben substitute. I wonder how many coaches would change DM's for RObben against France at 1:0 up? noone.

France-Italy I cant wait and I dont know all the combinations of possible results so I have to look at it to know what to expect who goes through. But Romania played Holland twice so far and won once and drew once. Holland is qualified, but that doesnt mean a thing, I expect Holland win.

Also I dont understand why Govou play in front of Benzema, and even Gomis! And Toulalan in front of FLAMINI! Domenech has gone crazy 200%.

You are right, so we should give the Dutch for credits for scoring so efficiently in front of goals.

And forget about the offside, knocked by Buffon, not offside, VN onside etc. Bulls*it (oops, sorry for the language), you and I know that that's just pure UEFA crab. I don't hink anyone in the world expect Panucci to shake off his momentary injury to come back to set the offside trap.

Regardless of what the rule says, that's just dumb and stupid. If that's not luck, what is it?

Hard to define luck, but that's one good incident.

Originally Posted by Nalx

Their defense has yet to be tested by a good team. Well, then I think from your statement I can assume that Italy is NOT good enough. Heck, on second thoughts, considering the way they're conceded 4 goals, I must say that their defense sucked, BIG time sucked!

I mean how more pathetic can it be for a reigning WC champions to expect their next opponent to play just as bad as they did last night in order to qualify. LOLL...

Their defense tested by France and didn't do well. We all know what good and not-so-good defense is as we have seen some classic defense from Italy (not this year) and from Milan.

Italy is no way good in defense this year,unfortunately.

French didn't play that bad last night, if some goals that they have scored have scored (and there are just so many of them).

Can't wait for Italy vs France!

Yeah, I know the rule is stupid and that Nistelrooy's goal, NI NORMAL WORLD, should have been offside, but Uefa has some kind of unreal rules so...its a goal aguess. Also, Poland was ROBBED by the ref, and when Croatia played Austria, if you noticed, Austrian CB had a yellow card around 15th minute, and around 40th he made a foul on Olic runnint towards goal, from behind, kicking him and pulling and it the and just knocking him down and in the end didnt get 2nd yellow. Untill the end of the game all the refs decisions went Austria way... And Toni's goal yesterday wasnt offside also, and it was a penalty for France.

But what can I say? Play on and that is it.

Do you think it is possible that Netherlands volontary lose 1-0 or 2-1 against Romania to eliminate both France and Italy ??

I'm a bit afraid about that, I remember Sweden-Danemark in Euro 2004, match finishing with 1-1, exactly the score qualifying both (and the last 10-15 minutes by just passing the ball without playing).

Anyway, Italy will haver to win to have "no regrets" (if they are eliminated, there will be so many regrets).

Originally Posted by mrki

Yeah, I know the rule is stupid and that Nistelrooy's goal, NI NORMAL WORLD, should have been offside, but Uefa has some kind of unreal rules so...its a goal aguess.
But what can I say? Play on and that is it.

You must have forgotten that it's us who creatd the rule. Having the audacity to come out and say, "ya that's not my problem it's the rule's problem" is not only ironic but shows their utter stupidity and the courage to admit mistake.

Worse still, they think they don't have to fix it. It's like,

"Italy, serve you right".



***

But yes, at the end of the day, play on.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Do you think it is possible that Netherlands volontary lose 1-0 or 2-1 against Romania to eliminate both France and Italy ??

I'm a bit afraid about that, I remember Sweden-Danemark in Euro 2004, match finishing with 1-1, exactly the score qualifying both (and the last 10-15 minutes by just passing the ball without playing).

Anyway, Italy will haver to win to have "no regrets" (if they are eliminated, there will be so many regrets).

They can, and UEFA will say that's perfectly legitimate.

If Italy has to has no regret then they should beat France. Whether they qualify or not, I don't think anyone will blame them anymore. If Italy managed to beat France, no one will say Italy is going out without pride.

Because we all know how well Italy's position will have been robbed, at least twice, by poor referee decisions.