Milan-Cagliari (22nd of February)

Nice discussions, lets begin with the Carlo's era.

I believe the first season under Carlo's, we played in UEFA Cup too and Rui Costa got injured in the first game or something. I think at that time Milan was a mess and Carlo did well to fix the team. Mostly b/c the players then(sadly, most of them are still around), were young, hungry and have the will to fight and win. Even though we did not win anything that year but all of us knew Milan was heading into the right direction. Then came the double year with CL and Italia Cup. Before that year, Milan signed Rivaldo, JDT and Nesta, and even though Rivaldo's spell at Milan was not successful, he did helped us win pts here and there. Those three players contributed greatly in the success of Milan and WERE players that FITTED into Carlo's system. It is also that year that Pirlo, Gattuso, and Kaladaze came to their own.
The following summer, Milan signed Cafu, Pancaro and Kaka. At the time of the signings, people did not expect them to be much improvement b/c Cafu was out of favor at Roma, Pancaro was Pancaro and Kaka was an unknown(also no place in Milan as Rui Costa was in his prime). A year later, Milan won Series A with the help of those three players. Yes, Kaka was and still is amazing, but once again those three players FITTED Carlo's system. Cafu was what the X'mas was lacking against smaller teams as he was probably the best RB that year. Pancaro filled in for Kaladaze and took over the starting LB job for the next few yrs at the age of 31. Kaka well, he is Kaka.
Due to the failure of CL-defeat to Depor, biggest upset at THAT time in CL history and also Milan history, as that year Milan only lost 2 matches by more than 2 goals. Milan went out in the summer and wanted to fix their two weaknesses, tall defender and a true target man. They got the best CB available in Stam and one of the best target man in Crespo. What supposed to be an unstoppable team ended with nothing. Domestically, Juve was the better team, but once again, Milan lost pts against smaller teams and Carlo could not find the balance to field Stam in the back four. Then came the biggest upset in the history of CL and Milan, the lost to Pool in the CL final. THis was also the first year I notice players began to lose their will to give it all against smaller teams and Carlo's failure in tactics. To me, this was the year that we had the strongest team since the early 90s. And yet, to come out with nothing was unacceptable, esp losing a 3-0 at HT in the CL final.

Need to go, will continue later

nice post Gab

I still remember at the end of 04/05 season, we had big chance to win both Serie A and UCL. If i'm not mistaken, we lost at home against juventus by trezeguet early goal in giornata 35. In UCL final soccer pundits put Pool as the inferior team under Milan. But finally we lost both 2 titles and got nothin that season

Originally Posted by boring

I would just like to what Mystik said.

Since the days of Rui Costa and Sheva, Milan has become a team of players with individual skill orientation. How many goals have Gattuso, Ambro, Pirlo, Beckham and Flamini put together scored from open play this season? The passing football is only in the midfield, there aren't enough passes play near the edge of the penalty area. Pato doesn't always need a pass from Pirlo to score a goal unlike Sheva. This is just a minute observation.. i'm not sure whether it's very true or not.

The lack of a fighting character is also there. Complacency makes it worse. Somehow, a champions league final appearance every alternate year seems to have become an acceptable goal without any domestic success to show. The team comprises of very successful players who're lacking enough motivation and Carlo doesn't seem to be much of a success on that front.

Btw, loving this new line of discussion.

This is a big part of the problem we have had in the last three years. We play as a group of collective individuals rather than as a single unit. I've made numerous posts regarding the subject and it's frustrating 3 years on we're still talking about the same subject.

Gabriel is making an interesting post about the club, I look forward to part 2.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

This is a big part of the problem we have had in the last three years. We play as a group of collective individuals rather than as a single unit. I've made numerous posts regarding the subject and it's frustrating 3 years on we're still talking about the same subject.

I'm not that old on MM so wasn't aware all my points had already been made though i won't surprised at the frustration you speak of.

I left off with the biggest upset in football history.
I must admit, that year we were the most talented team in the 21 century. Even the Inter and Man Utd of today is no match for what we were that year. Not only did we have great players, they also played like a team throughout the season.
Dida, Cafu, Nesta, Maldini, Pirlo, Kaka, Sheva were all elected into the FIFA 11 that year, thats 7 players of the possible 11 spots. On top of that, Gattuso, Ambro were probably the top 8 def. midfielders in the world at that time. Nesta, Maldini and Stam were among the top 10 CBs. Sheva was fresh off winning the Golden Ball. Pippo was scoring here and there. Seedorf was actually a very complete midfielder with high workrate, he was actually better than Essein of today then. There was only one player better than Kaka in the world at that time. Rui Costa, JDT, Crespo, Serginho, Kaladze, Billy and Vogel were all sitting on the bench.
You just can't find a better team than that and yet, we won nothing that year.

So what happened????

Yes, Rui Costa, JDT, Billy were older and was not as effective as the previous year. However, JDT and Billy were subs, and we all knew Kaka would take over from Rui Costa.
Overall the starting 11 and the bench was much stronger than the League winning year.

Once again what happened???

To me, Carlo lost control of the team. The players began to lose the will to beat small teams, and when they do, it was b/c they were relying on individual brilliance instead of team works like they used to for the past three years. The players and the coach began to think they could just beat anyone by showing up. On top of that, Carlo did not know what to do when the players were not performing.

The signs were all there but yet nothing did anything.

After that defeat, Rui Costa, JDT and Crespo left Milan. Gilardino was the big signing and it was a good signing. But at the end Milan ended with nothing again. Same old problems, Milan just could get 3 pts off small teams and the players began to show their ages. The MGT also saw this problem and planned to address them, as if rumors were to be believe, they did planned to sign Ibra, Zambrotta, and Buffon from Juve, with Bonera and Gourcuff as future players. Yet due to the scandal, Milan ended up with Kalac, Favalli, Bonera, Gourcuff and Olveria, hardly the world beaters, and on top of that, Sheva left Milan for FAMILY reasons. During mid season, Oddo and R99 came and added more depth to the squad, that resulted in an unexpected CL win.
That CL win came mainly due to Kaka, as he truly beat teams for us by himself. I still remembered the Bayern and ManU ties, where Kaka was the difference. Once again relying on individual brilliance instead of team work.
THe year after Kaka's CL win, after adding Emerson and Pato, we see us finishing 5th place. Even though the team was not as talented as before, it was hardly a 5th place team. That was the year when both team work and individual brilliance were not available. Kaka and Pippo were hurt here and there. Gilardino forgot how to score. Seedorf became a zombie on the field. Gattuso and Ambro lost the defensive edge. Pirlo could no longer pass properly and stopped running. Nesta and Maldini were taking turn resting at the lab. Oddo was a shadow of his own self. And Dida just could not catch anymore.
I am not going to talk about what is happening after that as the verdict is still out, but I am sure we all know the verdict already.

From my post, we can split Carlo's era into three parts.
The beginning-team work era
the middle-individual greatness
the third part, nothing.

Something happened during the 4th year, when we seems to have the strongest team in the world and still win nothing. When a team no longer plays as a team, it is the coach jobs to make sure they do. Carlo failed that, and you can see that Milan will never play as a unit like ManU as long as Carlo is in charge.

Great Post.. Since you raise the name of ManU, Ferguson comes across as a manager who has been capable of handling a trophy winning squad and inflated egos without the third phase of Carlo's tenure ever encroaching upon his career. He's had some of the best players and he's thrown them out when he felt they were getting bigger than the team or were lacking the intensity they mightve had when they were younger. Van Nistelrooy, Beckham etc.

Every time a squad establishes itself at the highest level, winning all and reaching at the pinnacle of world football, it faces problems and usually decomposes. Examples

1. Milan under Carlo (as Gabriel pointed out)
2. Arsenal under Wenger (the unbeatables of 03-04)
3. Real Madrid (Galacticos era)
4. Barcelona (the famous Rijkaard-Ronaldinho-Deco era)

All of these met with the same fate, DECOMPOSITION

* Wenger realised the players had gotten ahead of the team and so he cheerfully bid
them farewell. Henry, Wiltord, Vieira, Pires etc have subsequently moved on.

* The decline of the Galacticos is known to all. Ofcourse they were all old as well.

* Same with Barcelona. Deco, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho have left. Eto'o wants out too since its not the same for him. (I actually think one of the biggest reasons why Eto'o wants to leave is due to this)

Manchester United and Ferguson are the only team that didnt have a noticeable decline (though they did slow down after Abramovich came but regained soon after). They also didn't get get rid of most of those players and continued with the same hunger which is a testimony to Ferguson's abilities as a manager.

The only team that has completely failed to move on has been our beloved AC Milan. It's not only Carlo's failure but like Gabriel said, it's of the management's and the owner's too.

Btw, is anyone else supporting Inter and Juve against Manure and Chelsh*t?

http://www.football365.com/mailbox/s...967170,00.html

http://www.football365.com/mailbox/s...968080,00.html

Good discussion on technology in football and refereeing improvements.

Originally Posted by boring

Btw, is anyone else supporting Inter and Juve against Manure and Chelsh*t?

Aye! Somehow I just feel that the world of football will benefit from the English teams getting off their high horses. Certainly I'd love to go a year without hearing Alan Hansen and the like talking nonsense about the EPL and its glory.

Originally Posted by boring

Great Post.. Since you raise the name of ManU, Ferguson comes across as a manager who has been capable of handling a trophy winning squad and inflated egos without the third phase of Carlo's tenure ever encroaching upon his career. He's had some of the best players and he's thrown them out when he felt they were getting bigger than the team or were lacking the intensity they mightve had when they were younger. Van Nistelrooy, Beckham etc.

Every time a squad establishes itself at the highest level, winning all and reaching at the pinnacle of world football, it faces problems and usually decomposes. Examples

1. Milan under Carlo (as Gabriel pointed out)
2. Arsenal under Wenger (the unbeatables of 03-04)
3. Real Madrid (Galacticos era)
4. Barcelona (the famous Rijkaard-Ronaldinho-Deco era)

All of these met with the same fate, DECOMPOSITION

* Wenger realised the players had gotten ahead of the team and so he cheerfully bid
them farewell. Henry, Wiltord, Vieira, Pires etc have subsequently moved on.

* The decline of the Galacticos is known to all. Ofcourse they were all old as well.

* Same with Barcelona. Deco, Rijkaard, Ronaldinho have left. Eto'o wants out too since its not the same for him. (I actually think one of the biggest reasons why Eto'o wants to leave is due to this)

Manchester United and Ferguson are the only team that didnt have a noticeable decline (though they did slow down after Abramovich came but regained soon after). They also didn't get get rid of most of those players and continued with the same hunger which is a testimony to Ferguson's abilities as a manager.

The only team that has completely failed to move on has been our beloved AC Milan. It's not only Carlo's failure but like Gabriel said, it's of the management's and the owner's too.

Btw, is anyone else supporting Inter and Juve against Manure and Chelsh*t?

I don't agree with all your post ...

Firstly, we have to know that, like in a lot of things (economics, politics, sports, it's the same), everything is made of cycles ... you can't be on top everytime and you can't be always at the bottom.

So it's a normal thing that a team is built, it slowly (or quickly, it depends on the teams) plays well, and then it increases until being at its best, to finish by slowly or quickly (same as before, depends) decrease. Team sports are all about that: starting a cycle, ending it, starting a cycle, ... it's just the same story all the time. The best teams are just the ones with a management that has successfully rebuilt the team several times in the past: Milan, Madrid, Liverpool, ...

Then, about Manchester United, saying they just slowed down is false actually: they clearly failed and were a joke or almost some years ago ... don't you remember when they ended 4th of their group in Champions League ?! They were nowhere, they didn't play like a team at all. Then they slowly rebuilt their team and last year was their year, we'll see if they can remain at this top form for years or if they slowly decrease like all best teams did, do and will do.

Then, when you say that Milan is the only team who failed:
- Real Madrid ; they won the CL in 2002, they won their championship in 2003, and then they had to wait until 2007 to win any major trophy (Liga).
- Barcelona ; they won the Liga in 1999, but it's all you can see until 2005 (Liga) and 2006 (Liga and CL).
- ...

So, once your team "fails", you can't rebuild it in 1 or 2 years, I didn't expect a lot from this season and I won't expect a lot of next year for example (even if I hope to be surprised anyway). But then (so 2010-2011), it will be time to be at the top again ...

PS: I hope Italian clubs will beat these English clubs, even if I can't call that "support", I just want them to eliminate their opponents. I just hope not to see a 3-0 for England against Italy.

Yep, im also supporting juve, inter and roma against english clubs...
let's hope that italians will kick their english asses and show that Serie A is like NBA in basketball...

Of the three ties, I think Roma have the best chance for advancing and if Juve can take advantages of having Amauri and Trez, Juve can beat Chelsea with the away goals rule.
ManU will beat Inter.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

I don't agree with all your post ...

Firstly, we have to know that, like in a lot of things (economics, politics, sports, it's the same), everything is made of cycles ... you can't be on top everytime and you can't be always at the bottom.

So it's a normal thing that a team is built, it slowly (or quickly, it depends on the teams) plays well, and then it increases until being at its best, to finish by slowly or quickly (same as before, depends) decrease. Team sports are all about that: starting a cycle, ending it, starting a cycle, ... it's just the same story all the time. The best teams are just the ones with a management that has successfully rebuilt the team several times in the past: Milan, Madrid, Liverpool, ...

Then, about Manchester United, saying they just slowed down is false actually: they clearly failed and were a joke or almost some years ago ... don't you remember when they ended 4th of their group in Champions League ?! They were nowhere, they didn't play like a team at all. Then they slowly rebuilt their team and last year was their year, we'll see if they can remain at this top form for years or if they slowly decrease like all best teams did, do and will do.

Then, when you say that Milan is the only team who failed:
- Real Madrid ; they won the CL in 2002, they won their championship in 2003, and then they had to wait until 2007 to win any major trophy (Liga).
- Barcelona ; they won the Liga in 1999, but it's all you can see until 2005 (Liga) and 2006 (Liga and CL).
- ...

So, once your team "fails", you can't rebuild it in 1 or 2 years, I didn't expect a lot from this season and I won't expect a lot of next year for example (even if I hope to be surprised anyway). But then (so 2010-2011), it will be time to be at the top again ...

PS: I hope Italian clubs will beat these English clubs, even if I can't call that "support", I just want them to eliminate their opponents. I just hope not to see a 3-0 for England against Italy.

With ManU, I meant the time immediately after they did the treble in 1999. They went on to win the league title thrice in the next 4 years. Plus they won the F.A. Cup in 2004. Ferguson actually replaced many of the starters in the 1999 treble winning side. He lost as many as 5 players from those 11 over the next 3 years. It's not like they were necessarily old. Over the next years, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Ferdinand, Carrick etc came in to replace the past generation.. players with hunger.

Similarly, Wenger let go of 6 of his best players from that 2003-05 glory period over the next few years. Because he wanted the players to be a unit. In Henry's last year at Arsenal, he was a very selfish player because he knew how big he was. We could clearly see his negative impact on the squad and he was let go. the new generation has stepped in and eventually will blossom.

The Madrid today doesn't have the same players anymore, they've brought in a brand new squad, (many have retired) but players like Guti (who is quite a lot like Seedorf.. lazy genius), Salgado, Beckham, Ronaldo etc. have either gone or replaced by others in the first team. Not necessarily because they were bad but because it was time to move on.

Similarly for Barca. The Rijkaard era was realised to be over and players like Edmilson, Deco, Belletti, Gio, Ronaldinho, Van Bommel left.. because complacency had crept into the squad and we saw that in the next 2 seasons. Now, Iniesta in new Deco, Toure is new Edmilson, Messi new Ronaldinho, Alves new Belleti etc.

When I say Milan failed, I say Milan failed to move on from that past glory. Look at Milan in contrast. Seedorf, Pirlo, Ambrosini, etc. Now this point has been presented many times but I want to highlight it one more time. Our process of rebuilding is hung up in past glory. We've been declining since Istanbul (2006-07 was all Kaka with a supporting cast). We haven't got in new players, we don't have any exciting young players on the bench and we don't trust what talent we have (Gourcuff), instead, relying on Seedorf, who has been bad for the last 2 seasons. Its a mentality issue, not only a player and coach thing.

Just so you all know, there's a CL thread in the General section of the site

Originally Posted by boring

When I say Milan failed, I say Milan failed to move on from that past glory. Look at Milan in contrast. Seedorf, Pirlo, Ambrosini, etc. Now this point has been presented many times but I want to highlight it one more time. Our process of rebuilding is hung up in past glory. We've been declining since Istanbul (2006-07 was all Kaka with a supporting cast). We haven't got in new players, we don't have any exciting young players on the bench and we don't trust what talent we have (Gourcuff), instead, relying on Seedorf, who has been bad for the last 2 seasons. Its a mentality issue, not only a player and coach thing.

Let's just wait July-August 2010, just after the World Cup, we'll compare our current team with the one we'll have at this moment, if it's still the same players, you'll be right, I mean, we'll be able to say that your analysis of the current situation in 2008-2009 was true ... If the team changes (but in a good way lol, of course), I'll be right ...

Actually, from your examples, again, I'm not totally ok with you:
- Madrid isn't an example I'd like to reproduct in Milan ... they changed so many players since their "Galacticos" team. It took 5 years to them to create an unstable team !!
- For Arsenal, I don't know why you use them as an example actually. They never were a great team, they didn't do anything in Europe, and their English era lasted only 2-3 years (and not when the EPL was at its best I think). As for players, they just sell to make profit, then Wenger tries to buy young players. It's the case since the end of their "era", and they didn't win any major trophy since their mentality is this one (it's weird ... or not, actually it is not, their team has no exeperience year after year whereas they are always qualified in CL).
- For Barcelona, their current team is just the continuity of their team of 2-3 years ago. It's, for me, the same era ... (look at us, we're actually still in the era started in 2003, it's actually one single era whereas we didn't win anything in 2005 and struggled last year. We can, like you did, cut this era in small parts, but it's still the same as a whole. For Barcelona, it's the same, their era started in 2006 and they're still in it ... 2 good years isn't enough to be called an era).

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Let's just wait July-August 2010, just after the World Cup, we'll compare our current team with the one we'll have at this moment, if it's still the same players, you'll be right, I mean, we'll be able to say that your analysis of the current situation in 2008-2009 was true ... If the team changes (but in a good way lol, of course), I'll be right ...

Actually, from your examples, again, I'm not totally ok with you:
- Madrid isn't an example I'd like to reproduct in Milan ... they changed so many players since their "Galacticos" team. It took 5 years to them to create an unstable team !!
- For Arsenal, I don't know why you use them as an example actually. They never were a great team, they didn't do anything in Europe, and their English era lasted only 2-3 years (and not when the EPL was at its best I think). As for players, they just sell to make profit, then Wenger tries to buy young players. It's the case since the end of their "era", and they didn't win any major trophy since their mentality is this one (it's weird ... or not, actually it is not, their team has no exeperience year after year whereas they are always qualified in CL).
- For Barcelona, their current team is just the continuity of their team of 2-3 years ago. It's, for me, the same era ... (look at us, we're actually still in the era started in 2003, it's actually one single era whereas we didn't win anything in 2005 and struggled last year. We can, like you did, cut this era in small parts, but it's still the same as a whole. For Barcelona, it's the same, their era started in 2006 and they're still in it ... 2 good years isn't enough to be called an era).

You just can't stop arguing can you?

With the teams i've quoted, it's not only about introducing a stable system after your glory period is over but also taking serious steps in anticipation of the future. Something we've been lacking.

Like you said, let's see after the WC. However, I would like to say that our post glory era has gone on for too long. I hate change personally, but sometimes its just what is needed.

Hopefully you'll be right and Milan will prove me wrong.