Milan-Cagliari (22nd of February)

Originally Posted by boring

You just can't stop arguing can you?

It's a forum, a forum is done to share points of views, you launched an interesting subject, I have a different point of view (not completely different actually), so ...
And I presume you're ok to argue too, or you would have created a blog ...

Anyway, actually, it's a sentence I said too many times here I think lol, but "let's wait and see what happens, only time will say" ...

Oh I love to argue. But not for no reason like some others on this forum (i'm sure you know who I mean). Too bad there isn't any political discussion on MM.

Originally posted by boring

When I say Milan failed, I say Milan failed to move on from that past glory. Look at Milan in contrast. Seedorf, Pirlo, Ambrosini, etc. Now this point has been presented many times but I want to highlight it one more time. Our process of rebuilding is hung up in past glory. We've been declining since Istanbul (2006-07 was all Kaka with a supporting cast). We haven't got in new players, we don't have any exciting young players on the bench and we don't trust what talent we have (Gourcuff), instead, relying on Seedorf, who has been bad for the last 2 seasons. Its a mentality issue, not only a player and coach thing.

Carlo asked for alex,toni,ribery,and adebayor. he got r80,sheva,b32,no-existance boriello instead.he saw the problems and posed a solution.but he didn't get what he want.take a look at how much fund furgsson get to rebuild the current squad.It's not fair and proper you compare them.Maybe we should let that arabist buy milan 40% share.

Carlo had gaven gorky chances despite under the pressure we compete 2 frontlines, gorky himself should took his part why he fails.

I really don't want to talk about Carlo anymore, as he lost control of the team.
You say that he does not have anyone to work with, b/c he did not get the players he really wanted. Well, JM wanted Essien, Lampard and Drogba, he got Muntari, Mancini and Quersma. Of the three, only Muntari is doing well in Inter while the other two is on loan and on the bench. And where is Inter currently in the standing, a 11pt lead over us.
The thing is people say if only Nesta is healthy, we will be at the top....but the truth is far from it. Some of the players just lost motiviation and it is the job of the Coach to bring orders into the squad and play the players to their strengths instead of weaknesses.
Carlo may still be a solid coach, but his time in Milan should have been over when we lost to Pool in the CL final.

Geo and Boring, you guys are having a great discussions, mind if I join in.

All I want to say is that, lets compare Real, Bareclona, Arsenal, ManU, Roma, Juve, Pool, Inter, Chelsea, Bayern and us in 2002-2003 to present day. You will find that only Milan have literally the same squad as 2002-2003, where as the other teams all went through changes.

Thats something Milan lacks, whether the team struggles or cannot be on top, but at least we can see that the team is trying to win and playing with heart. Frankly, thats whats lacking in our players over the past years.

Gabriel, I agree with pretty much everything you say, except two points:

1) It's probably not fair to compare Inter with Milan after the Caciopoli. It is my personal belief that inter is almost the sole beneficiary of the whole incident; they scoop (literally), Ibra et al. and Juve is dismantled. Mou may have gotten someone he doesn't want, like Muntari, Mancini, and Quersma (how did we know that he didn't request for them, btw?), but their squad is already strong. They don't have 3x years old defenders to start with. We do. It's a mistake, more so from the management than I see from Carlo.

2) He should have been over when we lost to Liverpool in the CL final, I agree, but then he won it again in 2006-2007. This seems to refute the 'no motivation' argument, because if there isn't any motivation, then the squad is not even going to be able to compete after losing to Liverpool. You are right that all the other teams went through changes, but only a few (Barcelona, Chelsea, and Man U?) actually made it to the CL final and won (Man U & Barcelona), while Milan actually come very close in a lot of occasions, except the one we lost to Arsenal.

***

If there is something we can say, it is that Milan got into this injury crisis so badly for almost the whole past year that Milan isn't even able to develop as a team. Am I finding excuse? Perhaps. But also bear in mind that we (as human) often commit what psychologists called 'fundamental attribution error'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...ribution_error), meaning that we often attribute failure to the person or the individual, but failed to take into account the situations. An example will be that if a plane crash, you'll immediately think that the pilot is at fault. in fact, a lot of times it's the slightest maintenance error on the ground that already determine the fate of the craft.

We make way too many fundamental attribution error in our life.

***

The key again is what's the solution, and I don't have any. We are still re-building: We need some world-class DCs, some folks who are experienced enough but still have the desire to win, and get rid of Seedorf. It is perhaps the last point that Carlo should be sacked, because his infatuation with Seedorf is utterly unexplainable.

But even then, what can he really do? Will Leonardo be able to motivate the old folks? Will Van Basten be able to fire up the team? I don't think so. The only way is to inject more new players, but that comes with an expense on the lack of inexperience.

it's a difficult call, and the management has so far gotten it all wrong. the team is not balanced: We have the most samba-tic attack, but we lack world-class defense, and we are talking about Serie A where even the bottom of the team can give you headache.

I'll rather blame the injury crisis and the management's lack of foresight for Defense (e.g., sending off Oddo?) that contributes to the crisis. But of course, Carlo might have well played a role...

Originally Posted by boring

Btw, is anyone else supporting Inter and Juve against Manure and Chelsh*t?

Juve, yes. Inert, no.

Originally posted by jeff

The key again is what's the solution, and I don't have any. We are still re-building: We need some world-class DCs, some folks who are experienced enough but still have the desire to win, and get rid of Seedorf. It is perhaps the last point that Carlo should be sacked, because his infatuation with Seedorf is utterly unexplainable.

But even then, what can he really do? Will Leonardo be able to motivate the old folks? Will Van Basten be able to fire up the team? I don't think so. The only way is to inject more new players, but that comes with an expense on the lack of inexperience.

it's a difficult call, and the management has so far gotten it all wrong. the team is not balanced: We have the most samba-tic attack, but we lack world-class defense, and we are talking about Serie A where even the bottom of the team can give you headache.

Great post again,jeff! sorted it almost all out.

How many great teams can sustain beautiful fluid penetrating football over a long span of time(2 years for exemple).Bacelona under ronaldinio played 2 years that football,and under messi currently is playing(let's see for how long can they maintain that level).Milan played 1 year at our last scudetto winning season.arsenal played maybe 2 years under henry(though arsenal's achievement cant' be counted as great).and who else? I call the football we are now playing is beautiful football.

Our current squad has 2 big problems tactically.
1, air ball capability at both box
2, lack of mobility at front(especially when facing small teams)

Take a look at the players Carlo asked years ago but never get, the man has vision.

We brought in pato,t-silva,mationni recently, the management at least are working on the right direction.

Great post Jeff. Just a few comments.

The Inter part, well, I was ust suggesting JM did not get the players he really wanted but still getting good results. Yes, Inter is already a strong squad but to me, if they can beat ManU in the CL, there is a great chance that they can win the treple. Something that I doubt Mancini could do. Give JM some credits for being able to tell all the egos in the Inter dressing room that his way is the only way. Something that Carlo can no longer do.

As for the 06-07 Cl win, well it was a Kaka win more than anything. And I just want to be clear about motivation, I am referring to playing teams like Regginna or Lecce in the league instead of playing ManU or Bayern in the CL. You must admit that the team rarely shows up to play against lower sides in Series A.

The injury crisis is a factor but how do you explain last year or the year, league position wise. The year we won CL, we finished 3rd, then last year we finished 5th behind two teams that just got promoted. Injury happens not only to us but to other teams as well. However, it is the coach's job to develop replacements. Having Nesta back might have win us more pts, but why kept playing guys like Seedorf or Kaladaze?

Maybe Carlo is being made the goat here and he is not completely at fault here, but he must take most of the blame as he is at fault for not getting better result with the roster for over the last few yrs. IE not winning the league or at least coming close.

Right, but Carlo is never that kind of coach. He never is one who tries to boss you around. In fact, I wonder how many coaches actually survive in the long run with the "listen to me here I am the boss". Of course, being soft is not good too, but Carlo has also have the reputation of being very good at maintaining dressing room climate. Well, I guess it's a the-glass-is-half-empty vs. half-full argument.

You are right about less showing up to play against lower sides in Serie A, and I agree that it's probably a matter of motivation. The problem, I suspect, comes more from the fact that the strategy that Carlo plays work much better in Europe (where you have more box players) than in Serie A. In Serie A, you need a lot of physical strength and someone to feed the ball in, hold the ball, and then attack (that's my own personal perception). Milan has never, ever, been able to do that. The one come closest is Shevchenko (remember that goal against Roma?), but otherwise we have been just terrible with defending headers or set-piece. Same when you go to attack. We haven't been able to do that and, when the team tries to play on the ground, defensive, 9-0-1 team can simply stuff you out. However slate Milan's passing it, the ball is not going to go through the ball.

Pirlo's role in Milan is exactly to fill that role: to distribute the ball (long ball or mid-range ball) so that it'll reach the front end faster. There is no point in relying on Seedorf anymore hoping that he'll dribble past 2/3 players at one point, nor Kaka` because Kaka` is going to be stuffed by 3 players and, if he managed to escape, tackled from the back, harsh.

Milan is also very reluctant to attack in mass; they prefer to be rather safe, (too safe if I may add), careful, and strike all of a sudden with a lightning speed (usually coupled with some slate technical passes), but again against smaller team there is no way you can do that with ease due to the lack of space.

And there you goes the motivation; I don't see any players will be motivated to keep such patience throughout the 90 mins.

***

Didn't we already agree that when Milan won, Milan won as a team? Kaka` won the free kick outside the penalty area, Pirlo shot, hit Inzaghi who (purposedly?) send the ball in the other way; second goal, Kaka` passes to inzaghi who beats the offside trap (i.e., if Inzaghi didn't beat the offside trap or is offside, then there is no goal), and scored. Seedorf's (oh yah...) header to kaka` who shot marvelously... Inzaghi and Pirlo pressed hard in the penalty box to get the ball away from (vidic?), made the cross to Inzaghi who missed, everyone left out Seedorf, shoot, goal. And Gila (oh but who cares about him lol). Seedorf's tricky backheel to Inzaghi, who always scored against Kahn. Seedorf faked two players before scoring (start from a mid-field area defense from Nesta btw), passed by Kaka`. Pirlo beat the offside trap and scored a (weird) header, and Kaka` got a much un-deserved penalty kick.

If there is one match that Kak` really wins it for Carlo, it's the game we struggle against Celtic and he scored 1-0.

Trust me: every year we have injury crisis: This is not the only one. We have on and off for so long... we have players like Ambro out for a while, Kaka` out for a while, Inzaghi out for a while (flu, flu, flu). I got so sick of injury for the past two seasons already and it has only gotten worse this year. And then we have a messed up defense.

I do not know about why keep playing Seedorf, but I haven't seen anyone who is a better alternative. Perhaps Gourcuff (but I have already discsused him last year so we'll save it for now). Again, the key question is: who else? Favalli?

***

Overall, diferent people put different emphasis and priorities. TO me, personally, winning a European cup is always better than a serie A league. Prestige I guess. He is definitely at fault for not getting better result with the roster for over the last few years, but I seriously doubt how he can compete with Inter when Inter is such a strong team after the scandal. And I'm not even sure if this squad is competitive enough. Like Sacchi said, Milan have so many problems, so many that I doubt if Carlo will be the only person capable of solving it.

Peace...

What the hell mouriniho need drogba? inter already got imbra and adriano,balloteli also showed great potential last year under mancini.similar mode better skill and younger.

Inter's CM departement is not their weak spot with cambiasso ,zanetti,viera and muntari,what they need is AM or wingers(mouriniho's favorite),and he got a pair,I think he insisted quaresma.

Carlo asked players to cover our weak link.those weak spot cost us so much in past few years despite we were so close to get a double title once.

Carlo's way is the only way? tell that to sheva, he left once. then tell that to berlusconi,our president also great tactician.

Peace,I won't argue more.

About Inter, it's false to say Mourinho didn't get the players he wanted, because his choices, said in the press were:
- Lampard (ok, he got Muntari, a bit less technical but a lot more physical)
- Quaresma (he clearly wanted him)
- Mancini (actually, not a clear choice from Mourinho but a logical one, if you get a winger on a side, you need another winger for the other side, and to add to that, Mancini was close to sign to Inter even without Mourinho)
- Essien or Drogba, which are two completely stupid choices ... Inter have something like 50 midfielders and 25 strikers , what was the point of taking a new striker and a new central midfielder when you have so many players and that you know you're going to play with a 4-3-3 (using your new wingers, even if Mourinho changed his mind after the poor performances of Quaresma and Mancini).

Mates, you were inspired !! Still 2 entire posts to read before being able to react properly !!

Originally Posted by Jeff

Right, but Carlo is never that kind of coach. He never is one who tries to boss you around. In fact, I wonder how many coaches actually survive in the long run with the "listen to me here I am the boss". Of course, being soft is not good too, but Carlo has also have the reputation of being very good at maintaining dressing room climate. Well, I guess it's a the-glass-is-half-empty vs. half-full argument.

I must disagree Jeff. Mourinho's a strong disciplinarian and one for organisation, but he isn't one to just boss others around. In fact, he's an incredible manager and that shows in the reactions and close relationships he's developed with players at his various clubs. Porto, Chelsea or Inter, I can't think of anyone other than possibly Balotelli (who quite frankly seems to be an idiot anyway) who Mourinho has had any real falling out with. As for other coaches to have survived with the "boss me" attitude include Capello, Sacchi, Ferguson and even Lippi (not a bad list of coaches if you ask me).

To be honest, if you asked me last summer, should Milan fire Carlo and hire JM, I would say yes, but will Berlu do it-never.

I don't want to make Carlo into a yes man, but he is.

As for the other points Jeff, agree and disagree as I see where you are coming from, I guess like you said, it is more half empty or half full.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Overall, diferent people put different emphasis and priorities. TO me, personally, winning a European cup is always better than a serie A league. Prestige I guess. He is definitely at fault for not getting better result with the roster for over the last few years, but I seriously doubt how he can compete with Inter when Inter is such a strong team after the scandal. And I'm not even sure if this squad is competitive enough. Like Sacchi said, Milan have so many problems, so many that I doubt if Carlo will be the only person capable of solving it. Peace...

I like this part more. I don't care we can't win Serie A for 5 years as long as Champions League Winner is like a habbit for us. This is the best part of Ancelotti. Lippi, Fergie are behind Carlo in CL's performances and results (we shouldn't talk about 'noobs' like Rijkaard, Wenger or worse name).

But (which I hate) we can't rely on the current squad anymore to get the results in Europe like the past years as Carlo will always play them even they are unmotivated and underperformed (Seedorf, Pirlo etc.). We need to change the squad (which is almost impossible) if we want to keep Ancelotti.

The past years : Ancelotti = CL Winner (sorry mrki , I hate Ancelotti now but he is still the best for CL). Ah that time was so nice (thanks to Carlo)!

About CL 2006/07 (not replied to you Jeff)

I am still confident to say until now that that was not because of Kaka we could win it. I see it 3 major reasons. The first one was the great motivation of our players (the team) after Calciopoli to win the CL (something like to prove that we were not finished). This was the biggest influence IMO. The second part was Ancelotti's brilliant tactic and strategy (but without very high motivated squad Carlo would never manage to win the CL). I doubt there was any coach that could bring Milan to the CL's final with that squad (only Inzaghi as the fit and peformed striker).

We won against Bayern, MU and finally Liverpool thanks to the cleverness of Ancelotti (especially against Bayern in Munich and MU in San Siro). And the last reason we won CL was of course Kaka. He did so many to the team in that year. But without Ancelotti, he wouldn't play as forward. Ancelotti was the actor who dared to play Kaka very upfront (the key that he could destroy opponent's defence like against Celtic and MU).

Actually, to be back with "cycles", I think Ancelotti should have left/been fired just after our last CL win ... I know it's something strange, but I think it was the moment.

Ancelotti stayed, and so, let's keep him until, at least, the end of the 2009-2010 season (so still the next season), and then, let's do a bilan and let's see if it is best to let him becoming a coach for a NT or if we keep him 2 more years ...