Milan would be 1st without refereeing errors

http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/italy...g-errors-study


And Inter would be fourth, apparently. While this study might not be entirely accurate, I think there is still a point here. Inter have gained 11 points from refereeing errors, while we have lost 5. While it's impossible to ask "what if" when talking about football, this study does say something about how much Inter have benefitted from refereeing errors. While I think it is just big club bias when it comes to Inter, I wonder why we don't have more luck with the referees. Could there be an anti-Milan bias as well, due to our involvement in Calciopoli, or are we just unfortunate?

Something tells that the answers are to be found in Massimo Moratti's bank account

I think so devoted....it is clear, especially after the Sampdoria match, that, more often than not, we are not given the benefit of the doubt by match officials.

Inter have clearly got a hold on serie a refs since calciopoli. HOw else you do explain crappy, last minute off side goals in serie a, and then the same team crashing out in the CL playhing against mediocre opposition like Valencia?

But nonetheless looking at our recent performances, I think we don't have too much of a right to complain about the refs. Most of the errors come from our own team's attitude and the lack of speed, dynamic qualities, and passion. I mean honestly even the Milan derby, even if you dont count Adriano's handball goal----did we really deserve to win that game given how we played? If Inter were luckier, then may have scored even more goals..

Just one quick response to rt9: You can play crappy and win. In fact, some will argue that that's what make a team win a Serie A: you can win even if you don't deserve it.

To me, whether you deserve it is like whether you play beautifully.

We deserve a win, but we draw (we play beautifully, but we draw).
We doesn't deserve a win, but we win (we play ugly, but heck we win).

To me, winning, even if it's ugly, is a win.

***

Based on your assertion, however, there are many games when Milan actually deserves winning (still makes me remember the first game when we play against Bologna with so mcuh aggression) and yet we lost.

Deservedly lost? Heck no. Did we lose? Yes.

Which matter? Winning.

The problem with this kind of studies is that they probably don't say where the 11 points have been won and where the 5 points have been lost for us ... you see, how did they calculate ?

Am I the only one who finds this ridiculous? Not Inter getting beneficial treatment, I can believe that. But did everyone forget the numerous dubious penalty calls we received earlier in the year?

These 'revised tables' are 'calculated' just for headlines and to generate controversy. There's no way to prove how one call would affect the result of a game, and subsequently a team's point total.

Of course, that is useless for some reasons ... just one example: for the same foul, with the same replays, even between fans of the same team, we sometimes disagree with what had to be the decision of the referee. So who are they to do such a thing ?!

Originally Posted by Jeff

Just one quick response to rt9: You can play crappy and win. In fact, some will argue that that's what make a team win a Serie A: you can win even if you don't deserve it.

To me, whether you deserve it is like whether you play beautifully.

We deserve a win, but we draw (we play beautifully, but we draw).
We doesn't deserve a win, but we win (we play ugly, but heck we win).

To me, winning, even if it's ugly, is a win.

***

Based on your assertion, however, there are many games when Milan actually deserves winning (still makes me remember the first game when we play against Bologna with so mcuh aggression) and yet we lost.

Deservedly lost? Heck no. Did we lose? Yes.

Which matter? Winning.

No Jeff, it's not only playing beautifully, but it's about being able to compete, being on the same level as our opposition. Juve have always played crap football, create nothing, and score on a free kick or corner kick in the 89th minute and seal the game--that's fine. But they are a solid team, they may not play beautiful football, but they can compete with any team in the world without being outplayed.

We, on the other hand, have been outplayed in a lot of games. Inter played us off the park IMO. They created so many chances in the derby that they deserved to win the game---it wasnt like Adriano's handball was their only chance that game. What about the Bremen game? THat second half was atrocious, they played us off the park in our own stadium---they ran, they hustled, and they scored 2 goals within minutes of each other and knocked us out. This is what I mean. A team with no solidity, no consistency can play beautiful football at times, but usually even with referee errors, we still deserve to lose a lot of games this year.

Originally Posted by rt9

No Jeff, it's not only playing beautifully, but it's about being able to compete, being on the same level as our opposition. Juve have always played crap football, create nothing, and score on a free kick or corner kick in the 89th minute and seal the game--that's fine. But they are a solid team, they may not play beautiful football, but they can compete with any team in the world without being outplayed.

We, on the other hand, have been outplayed in a lot of games. Inter played us off the park IMO. They created so many chances in the derby that they deserved to win the game---it wasnt like Adriano's handball was their only chance that game. What about the Bremen game? THat second half was atrocious, they played us off the park in our own stadium---they ran, they hustled, and they scored 2 goals within minutes of each other and knocked us out. This is what I mean. A team with no solidity, no consistency can play beautiful football at times, but usually even with referee errors, we still deserve to lose a lot of games this year.

That's a fair point, rt9. No one will question that Inter dominated Milan. (Though actually, I thought Milan did pretty well in reaction in the second half against Inter Milan (first half is dysmal)).

It seemed, however, that you have not really responded to my points about games when we actually played well (those t the beginning of the season when we played much better than our opponents and yet we lost). We have crafted chances after chances, then hit the post or the other GK is on fire... and Milan lost. Wouldn't it be fair for me to say, then, Milan was actually a very competitive squad at the beginning of the season, then? Indeed, even though we lost, we actually didn't deserve losing (at least at the beginning of the season).

I thus believe that your reasoning is distorted by recent bad runs when we began to desperately miss Kaka`/R80, and to some extent Borreillo and Nesta, and terrible defense that had been terrible since the beginning of the year from DAY 1. When you coupled it with injury crisis and Kaka` leaving for Man City saga, things can only get worse.

Funny you mention about Bremen's game. I intend not to bring it up because it fully exposed our problems recently. You can basically see two things from the game:

1) Surprisingly, Seedorf is useful to the team exactly because he can hold up the ball, unlike Sheva (who desperately needed to prove himself) and Pato (who wasn't an experienced player/fox yet) who tried so desperately to just counterattack, 100% lost their ball immediately.

Bremen didn't walk us over EXACTLY UNTIL Seedorf's injury. Check out the video if you have the chance. Bremen were playing headlessly before and were threatening only at the first 15 minutes.

To be fair, Milan didn't play well even before Seedorf's subsitute, but we had enough ball control and possession AND CALMNESS that we held them off.

2) Our defense is terrible; and we are terrible at defending high ball. I think we already agree on both.

It's the combination of both that, I suggest, contributed to Milan's failure against Bremen.

Like many suggested, all the teams know how to play against Milan: If you play against Senderos, you can easily dribble past him. If you are playing against Maldini who is better technically and defensively, use high ball.

***

My reasoning, if you permit me to go one step further, suggests that something happened from the beginning of the season to now: Injury is definitely the key to blame. With Gattuso out, our defense ability goes down by almost 50%. With Kaka`/R80 out, our attack ability goes down by 60%. These players are invaluable asset, if not the most important, players, and yes we are missing them.

I am just entirely not sure to what extent we are calling for 'crisis' when so much so can be attributed to the injury factor + terrible defense.

It is even more comical, then, that people are calling for Carlo's dismissal when any coach in the world is not going to be able to deal with such ridiculous amount of injury + a lack of squad depth. It's funny people keep criticizing about Carlo's substitution and stuff but they never actually looked at even what option is available.

If Kaka`, for example, were on the bench (just back from injury, say) when MIlan is losing 2-0 then I would expect him to feature, not Favalli.

The fact is, neither Kaka` nor R80 were present, and I wonder how many of you will agree to put up Shevchenko when he has been VIRTUALLY ineffective this season.

But you know what: IF Carlo fielded Sheva you guys will bombard Carlo for fielding Shevchenko as being the stupid move.

yes, damn if you do, damn if you don't.

***

Of course, what contributes to the injury factor itself is a topic worthy of discussion... but i'll leave it to another day. My general opinion is that the management is to blame, and I don't know how they can screw up everyone who is injured. Certainly the new doctor can do a better job?

Regardless, we need a younger team that is more hungry of success and less injury-prone.

Nor do I want to go into detail about our defensive units. We already have enough discussion.

***

To support my thesis further, Kaka` is not unlikely to feature against Atalanta due to injury. The doctor is said to have no idea what makes him feel the pain.

Am I surprised?

but of course, this is Ancelotti's fault. Maybe Seedorf too (he must have broken all other AMC legs just to get to play). I'm sure.

Jeff, you make fair points. However, I cannot attribute Milan's poor season only because of injuries. Every team suffers injuries and it is the great teams who can overcome them and still acheive something. Man Utd have also had their fair share of injuries this year, they were without Ronaldo in the early season, without Rooney for a while, without Hargreaves, they came to play INter without Vidic--still they managed to play well and lead their league.

We are Milan. We have to have the squad depth and tactical know how to deal with these things. We can't just fall apart because Kaka or Boriello or Seedorf gets injured. It is up to Galliani to make sure we have a balanced squad that can adjust to different challenges and it is up to Ancelotti to adjust his tactics based on players available. Both have failed miserably this year.

The point I've been making and continue to make is that we are inconsistent, we may deserve to win some games early on, but we can go from playing beautiful football creating numerous chances to then get outplayed by teams like Torino---that's just ridiculous. We have to be competitive and difficult to beat against all opposition, not flashy against one and then utter crap against another. The Bremen game was pathetic, we had a 2-0 goal lead we did not deserve, played the game with full advantage, and still manage to lose----this shows that we are weak as a team, and our manager is equally weak psychologically. And Jeff, this is not the first time this crap has happened---remember PSV, LIverpool, Depor? Ancelotti's Milan has been flashy, but has never had the solidity and mental strength of Capello/Sacchi's Milan. This team will never be able to go on big unbeaten streaks, break records, and win trophies CONSISTENTLY.

That's all fair, of course. Milan doesn't really have the squad depth; I don't think anyone will disagree.

I'm not sure if it's Ancelotti's Milan, or Galliani's (Berlu's?) Milan.

Inconsistency has always been Milan's problems, esp. in Serie A. In fact, I would almost argue that Milan has been very consistent in Champion League (except for a couple of games), but that's again another story for another day...

J

Originally Posted by rt9

Jeff, you make fair points. However, I cannot attribute Milan's poor season only because of injuries. Every team suffers injuries and it is the great teams who can overcome them and still acheive something. Man Utd have also had their fair share of injuries this year, they were without Ronaldo in the early season, without Rooney for a while, without Hargreaves, they came to play INter without Vidic--still they managed to play well and lead their league.

We are Milan. We have to have the squad depth and tactical know how to deal with these things. We can't just fall apart because Kaka or Boriello or Seedorf gets injured. It is up to Galliani to make sure we have a balanced squad that can adjust to different challenges and it is up to Ancelotti to adjust his tactics based on players available. Both have failed miserably this year.

I don't think you can compare our situation to Manchester United having Cristiano Ronaldo or whoever gone for a month doesn't really compare with having Nesta gone the whole season, Gattuso gone 2/3 of the season, Borriello gone the whole season, and then minor injuries that have seen Kaka miss probably around a third of the games and then Ronaldinho, Bonera etc, etc, etc. Our situation is extreme, and i dare to say that you can't expect us to be running on full steam when missing 4 or 5 starters, and our abosolutly best players which we basicly have been since this crises started. I don't think any teams would be able to deal with that kind of injuries, look at Real Madrid earlier in the season when they had an injury crises, they got knocked out of the cup by an amatuer team.

I don't think things are as bad as some people want to make them, don't forget that we're still one of the most scoring teams in serie A. Our squad is still good, and I don't think we're more than a couple of signings away to being back among the best of Europe. This ofcoarse requires us to be more lucky with injuries, since the team also need some gelling. Our problem is still the defence, and with Thiago Silva coming in the summer, we would be perfectly set with one more defender, perhaps a LB and depending on Borriello a center forward.

How Kaka` is injured for so long is perplexing, but even more worrisome is what kind of injury this is that he has been struggling for almost a year now.