UEFA Champions League 2008-2009

Ok.. im so tired of these "Who is better, Messir or Cr7?" crap... lets just put the facts out and decide. ( Taken from ESPN Soccernet.Com )
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Lionel Messi ( Current Season / Best Season )

Spanish Primera Liga 30 Games(26+4) 23 Goals 11 Assists
Champions League 11 Games(9+2) 8 Goals 5 Assists
Copa Del'Rey 7 Games(4+3) 5 Goals 0 Assists

Cristiano Ronaldo ( 2007/2008 Season / Best Season )

Total Games Played : 49 ( 46+3 )
Total Goals Scored : 42
Total Assists : 8

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They played almost the same amount of games ( messi will play more obviously by the end of the season )
Messi scored 6 goals Less so far
Has assisted TWICE more than CR7 ( Messi 16--Cr7 with 8 )

Discuss

Pretty same to me from the stats; both are imrpessive; I'm sure there are strengths that one have and the other don't, and that will only matter in different teams.

We all know Kaka is better than both

Ronaldinho is the most talented though... If he just had the same work rate and proffesionel approach as Cristiano Ronaldo, then he could have been the best ever.

I typed Chelsea into my sat nav and it said two minutes from Rome.

I think Ronaldo Luis Nazario Da lima is the best ever watched. his moves look so easy....Even today's trio look clumsy compared to him in his best days...

If he was healthy he would have done even greater things. Today he's again scoring, amazing.

Originally Posted by El Fre

I think Ronaldo Luis Nazario Da lima is the best ever watched. his moves look so easy....Even today's trio look clumsy compared to him in his best days...

If he was healthy he would have done even greater things. Today he's again scoring, amazing.

I second that - the real Ronaldo is the only player I've ever really worshipped. Honestly if he came back I wouldn't complain...even though it would be a major risk.

Originally Posted by Christian

Ronaldinho is the most talented though... If he just had the same work rate and proffesionel approach as Cristiano Ronaldo, then he could have been the best ever.

Remember that Ronnie had 3 great seasons and then started to piss his talent away...just like Adriano...There's still time for CR to do the same.

Originally Posted by Ceceves

I agree Messi still has alot to prove, and as he's still young he has plenty of time and room for improvement. But I wouldn't say he dissapears - in these two Chelsea games he was very underwhelming (despite this he got an assist yesterday ), but a year ago against Man Utd he was, despite not scoring, the best player over 180 minutes, and the biggest threat in both games.

And still, who can lay a better claim to being the best player in the world? Ronaldo? Iniesta? Gerrard? Ribery? Ibra? Kaká? Giggs?!? No doubt in my mind Messi is the best.

I got your point, Ceceves...and also agree he has plenty of time(room I have my doubts) to improve. But I don´t agree he was that good against M. United last year. He had 2 or 3 great plays against MU in Old Trafford when his team really needs him...it is still too little for top-3 in the world, but at the same time, normal for a young player.

Remember what Ronaldinho(the old one) Gaucho did against us when we faced them?? And it was against Maldini, Nesta and with Gattuso snarling on his neck. Now, that was a performance of the best of the world. Also, kaká´s performances in the year he won the trophy and we the champions were amazing...

Thats my point...they can have a day off, but they need to perform against the best competition to earn that prize...also, to talk about the assist against Chelsea is trying to much It count as a assist, but it wasn´t a through ball or a great pass...that goal was pure Iniesta magic.

Look, no one can honestly to say that have played better than Messi the entire year. Said that guys like Iniesta, Xavi, Gerard had performed at the same level, with different type of game(Messi is more appealing), and needed to be there imo.

But what count(unfairly) is the last performance, and thats why Cristiano is in the hunt...Imo, last year he deserved the golden ball(and like Messi this year, with averages performances against the big ones), but this year not.

It´s not fair, but if Manchester win, and he perform(or not), it will be him one more time...

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Remember what Ronaldinho(the old one) Gaucho did against us when we faced them?? And it was against Maldini, Nesta and with Gattuso snarling on his neck. Now, that was a performance of the best of the world. Also, kaká´s performances in the year he won the trophy and we the champions were amazing...

Yeah great move, also the move against Chelsea. Was that the same year?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijR1WX2bLIo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf1SXYlnU34

Great stuff, pure WC

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

I got your point, Ceceves...and also agree he has plenty of time(room I have my doubts) to improve. But I don´t agree he was that good against M. United last year. He had 2 or 3 great plays against MU in Old Trafford when his team really needs him...it is still too little for top-3 in the world, but at the same time, normal for a young player.

Remember what Ronaldinho(the old one) Gaucho did against us when we faced them?? And it was against Maldini, Nesta and with Gattuso snarling on his neck. Now, that was a performance of the best of the world. Also, kaká´s performances in the year he won the trophy and we the champions were amazing...

Thats my point...they can have a day off, but they need to perform against the best competition to earn that prize...also, to talk about the assist against Chelsea is trying to much It count as a assist, but it wasn´t a through ball or a great pass...that goal was pure Iniesta magic.

Look, no one can honestly to say that have played better than Messi the entire year. Said that guys like Iniesta, Xavi, Gerard had performed at the same level, with different type of game(Messi is more appealing), and needed to be there imo.

But what count(unfairly) is the last performance, and thats why Cristiano is in the hunt...Imo, last year he deserved the golden ball(and like Messi this year, with averages performances against the big ones), but this year not.

It´s not fair, but if Manchester win, and he perform(or not), it will be him one more time...

I said Messi was the best player in the semis against United, but I didn't say he was THAT good. Nobody in either team played fantastic football because United did what Chelsea has done: destroyed the game (call it catenaccio, anti-fútbol or whatever). Messi was the best of a not-so-great bunch - and miles better than Cristiano.

I do remember vividly what Ronaldinho did in the semis two years before - pure magic. And no, Messi hasn't reached that level yet, almost no players have/will. And I Agree Messi hasn't emulated Kaká's amazing CL form of 2007 - again most players haven't, even some who have won the ballon d'or.

But I just can't accept that a great performance in a final counts for more than ten great performances in normal games.

EDIT: Just a thought - how would Kaká (just an example) have done if he was subjected to the sort of treatment that Messi was against Chelsea (and United last year)? In the semis against us two years ago United actually tried to play football, thus leaving more space for Milan than Barca had.

Originally Posted by Ceceves

I said Messi was the best player in the semis against United, but I didn't say he was THAT good. Nobody in either team played fantastic football because United did what Chelsea has done: destroyed the game (call it catenaccio, anti-fútbol or whatever). Messi was the best of a not-so-great bunch - and miles better than Cristiano.

I do remember vividly what Ronaldinho did in the semis two years before - pure magic. And no, Messi hasn't reached that level yet, almost no players have/will. And I Agree Messi hasn't emulated Kaká's amazing CL form of 2007.

But I just can't accept that a great performance in a final counts for more than ten great performances in normal games.

EDIT: Just a thought - how would Kaká (just an example) have done if he was subjected to the sort of treatment that Messi was against Chelsea (and United last year)? In the semis against us two years ago United actually tried to play football, thus leaving more space for Milan than Barca had.

...and thats is why I said it is unfair. But it is the way that these people that give these prizes judge. As I said, no one had a better season than Messi(maybe Iniesta), but if Cristiano to shine in the final, theres a good chance of he win(unfairly) the Golden Ball.

Regarding your thought: Tell me more about "sort of treatment"(I´m afraid to be wrong about your thought)...as besides the first game(a real catenaccio), Chelsea did nothing special scheme to stop Messi. They were tough but loyal, and they also did not foul a lot. Messi just couldn´t find the space he get in Spain and become frustrated.

Look...for me, until now, Messi deserve to be the front runner for the Golden Ball winner. But I just can´t put him as clear cut like Ronaldo, Zidane, Kaká and Ronaldinho were in the past...

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

...and thats is why I said it is unfair. But it is the way that these people that give these prizes judge. As I said, no one had a better season than Messi(maybe Iniesta), but if Cristiano to shine in the final, theres a good chance of he win(unfairly) the Golden Ball.

Regarding your thought: Tell me more about "sort of treatment"(I´m afraid to be wrong about your thought)...as besides the first game(a real catenaccio), Chelsea did nothing special scheme to stop Messi. They were tough but loyal, and they also did not foul a lot. Messi just couldn´t find the space he get in Spain and become frustrated.

Look...for me, until now, Messi deserve to be the front runner for the Golden Ball winner. But I just can´t put him as clear cut like Ronaldo, Zidane, Kaká and Ronaldinho were in the past...

I think Messi has the same case for the golden ball, that Ronaldo had almost a year ago. He has already scored 35 goals + assists this year, which is pretty much the case that was made for Cristiano Ronaldo last year. Cristiano Ronaldo didn't create the game for Manchester United against the big teams last season. Messi was great against Lyon, Bayern Munich, but when the team really needed him, against Chelsea, he didn't pull out anything really extraordinary.

That's why I'll rate Kaka, Ronaldinho and Zidane beyond both of those (until now, because both are young). Kaka pulled the team up, just like Zidane, and i have never seen a player as good with the ball as Ronaldinho in his day, which ultimatly pulled Barcelona up. It's just not the same as Messi playing in a team(that has matured since Ronaldinho) that now, if you'd name the five best players in the world, three off them would probably be from Barcelona. Cristiano Ronaldo, who let's face it, has a better approach to the game than Messi or Ronaldinho (since he plays in England), but isn't as talented as Kaka, Ronaldinho, Messi or even Pato.

Originally Posted by Ceceves

EDIT: Just a thought - how would Kaká (just an example) have done if he was subjected to the sort of treatment that Messi was against Chelsea (and United last year)? In the semis against us two years ago United actually tried to play football, thus leaving more space for Milan than Barca had.

But the difference between Kaka' and Messi is big: the way they play, but even another bigger difference, the team !!

Barcelona and Milan, when they are in form (especially this semi-final in San Siro ... probably one of the best all-time performances), play beautiful football but in such a different way.

I think we have a more various kind of play because we have very different players on the pitch - we can do long balls, short and fast passing, we are able to slow down the rythm, and we can also "let the ball to our opponent" and organize to block them and counter-attacking.

Barcelona is more a team that will try to play fast football with short passes (a lot of short passes), but their kind of play isn't very various. It's why, I think, they struggle so much against strong teams that play a good old Catenaccio. And Messi seems not to be able to make the difference in this case (I even rate higher Iniesta sometimes, he is more and more spectacular but he is more than all efficient and a kind of leader for the team, which isn't and won't be Messi).

About us, thanks to the variation in the way we play (of course, when we're in form), even if the team in front of us plays a kind of Catenaccio, that can't work, because we will try different ways to manage to score, and Kaka', as he is more powerful than Messi, will manage to play and probably create some space for himself (or his partners).

Originally Posted by Christian

I think Messi has the same case for the golden ball, that Ronaldo had almost a year ago. He has already scored 35 goals + assists this year, which is pretty much the case that was made for Cristiano Ronaldo last year. Cristiano Ronaldo didn't create the game for Manchester United against the big teams last season. Messi was great against Lyon, Bayern Munich, but when the team really needed him, against Chelsea, he didn't pull out anything really extraordinary.

That's why I'll rate Kaka, Ronaldinho and Zidane beyond both of those (until now, because both are young). Kaka pulled the team up, just like Zidane, and i have never seen a player as good with the ball as Ronaldinho in his day, which ultimatly pulled Barcelona up. It's just not the same as Messi playing in a team(that has matured since Ronaldinho) that now, if you'd name the five best players in the world, three off them would probably be from Barcelona. Cristiano Ronaldo, who let's face it, has a better approach to the game than Messi or Ronaldinho (since he plays in England), but isn't as talented as Kaka, Ronaldinho, Messi or even Pato.

Just to be more clear, I wasn´t talking about Cristiano Ronaldo when I put the name with Zidane, kaka and Ronaldinho as clear cuts. I was talking about Ronaldo(the Brazilian)

Cristiano Ronaldo last year also disappeared against the big teams. Sure he score in the final, but his game was very average. The problem was that last season no one could really compete with his titles and stats.

As I said, no one had a better year than Messi, but we can agree that like last year, the winner of the Golden Ball will not be in the same level of Zidane, Kaká, Ronaldinho or Ronaldo(R9) season in the past...

That's a very nice analysis GeoTav.