Banter 2009/2010

Originally Posted by Revolver

No, no, mate you didn't understood me well, I didn't took bijon's post seriously not because he's younger, but because it was utter madness.

Of course, I think there are some people in this forum who've been watching football longer than me, some like bijon are watching it not so long, it's ok with me, this is a forum and everybody have the right to say his opinion and of course it doesn't mean that some younger fan can't be right when I'm wrong.

Good posts Geo and Revolver... (hope it is a Magnum 357)
Honestly some people should always bear in mind that when their OPINION is needed it will be GIVEN to THEM!!!

SHEVA, RONALDO, MARCO anything else is grouped as "ETCETERA" and nothing else!!!

Going to join this discussions as I actually had the time to look back at the last few pages due to Chinese New Year and suffering a knee injury like Ronaldo.
Well, first of all, Sheva was probably the top 3 strikers in the world between the period of 1996-2005. For those who watched football during that time, you will agree that in those 10 years we got to witness a lot of great strikers in their prime. Sheva, Ronaldo, Battigol, Crespo, Veiri, Pippo, Raul, RVN, Trez, Henry, Shearer, Weah, and those are names just off top of my head. Then there were also those second tiers one, like Yorke, Anelka, Moreintes, Edmundo, JDT, Klivert and Larsson. As compare to all those top strikers in their prime now, Rooney, Torres, Dzeko, Pato, Fabiano, Ibra, Drogba, Eto, and Milito. I think only Ibra, Drogba and maybe Fabiano made the cut as top strikers at that time. Maybe I am discrediting alot of the strikers now, but from my point of view, there are not in the same class as those I mentioned earlier. You can say Torres and Rooney are tearing the EPL apart at present but compare to how Henry did it back in the early 00s, or Shearer and RVN during their time in the EPL, they lack way behind. Dzeko might be scoring a lot for a team who is struggling, but consider what Battigol did for Viola, always scoring over 20 goals in Serie A on a mid table team, Dzeko does not look too good. Drogba might be the most powerful and complete striker in the world, but he might only be 70% of what the non-injured Ronaldo used to be. Ibra might be the trickers, but Sheva can score against anyone. Fabaino might be the big game striker but guys like Veiri, Pippo, Raul, Crespo, Weah can all do that during their prime.

It is very easy to be fool by the marketing of Nike or Addias of making a players look better than they actually are but facts are facts. To say that Torres or Dzeko is better than Sheva in his prime is like saying Ashley Cole is a better LB than Cap Maldini in his prime.

Originally Posted by Gabriel489

Going to join this discussions as I actually had the time to look back at the last few pages due to Chinese New Year and suffering a knee injury like Ronaldo.
Well, first of all, Sheva was probably the top 3 strikers in the world between the period of 1996-2005. For those who watched football during that time, you will agree that in those 10 years we got to witness a lot of great strikers in their prime. Sheva, Ronaldo, Battigol, Crespo, Veiri, Pippo, Raul, RVN, Trez, Henry, Shearer, Weah, and those are names just off top of my head. Then there were also those second tiers one, like Yorke, Anelka, Moreintes, Edmundo, JDT, Klivert and Larsson. As compare to all those top strikers in their prime now, Rooney, Torres, Dzeko, Pato, Fabiano, Ibra, Drogba, Eto, and Milito. I think only Ibra, Drogba and maybe Fabiano made the cut as top strikers at that time. Maybe I am discrediting alot of the strikers now, but from my point of view, there are not in the same class as those I mentioned earlier. You can say Torres and Rooney are tearing the EPL apart at present but compare to how Henry did it back in the early 00s, or Shearer and RVN during their time in the EPL, they lack way behind. Dzeko might be scoring a lot for a team who is struggling, but consider what Battigol did for Viola, always scoring over 20 goals in Serie A on a mid table team, Dzeko does not look too good. Drogba might be the most powerful and complete striker in the world, but he might only be 70% of what the non-injured Ronaldo used to be. Ibra might be the trickers, but Sheva can score against anyone. Fabaino might be the big game striker but guys like Veiri, Pippo, Raul, Crespo, Weah can all do that during their prime.

It is very easy to be fool by the marketing of Nike or Addias of making a players look better than they actually are but facts are facts. To say that Torres or Dzeko is better than Sheva in his prime is like saying Ashley Cole is a better LB than Cap Maldini in his prime.

David Villa !! I think this striker who is probably the most complete one nowadays (a shame that he "only" plays in Valencia) would have been in the top strikers of the last decade too ...

Originally Posted by bijon

late, 2002\2003 I think, but since then I've been hooked and for some reason Milan ended up being my favorite, I think it was because it had Rui costa, Inzaghi, Shevchenko, Nesta and Maldini at the time.

Thanks for the answer, it pretty much explains your reasoning as to why Torres and Drogba are better than Sheva.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

David Villa !! I think this striker who is probably the most complete one nowadays (a shame that he "only" plays in Valencia) would have been in the top strikers of the last decade too ...

Completely forgot about Villa, he is by far the best finisher but lacks size to be the complete package. But he is still some ways to go to the likes of Raul and Veiri during their prime.

I'm not talking about accomplishments, I'm talking about ability. I've seen videos of pretty much every big goal Shevchenko has scored, the chip from outside the box against Juve, the goals against Inter, the goals against Roma and Lazio. I've also seen him screw up some really simple chances and make poor choices when presented with a goal scoring opportunity.

Give me an in form Drogba, Rooney or Torres vs an in form Shevchenko anyday and we'll see whose team will win.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Thanks for the answer, it pretty much explains your reasoning as to why Torres and Drogba are better than Sheva.

Nope Dev that doesn't.. I started watching football in 02/03 and there's no way in the world I would think Torres can be as good as Sheva. This guy probably watches the EPL a bit too much and is influenced by their commentators and their fans. He doesn't understand that the EPL has never had in its history a more complete striker than Sheva. Maybe the only player that arguably was better than Sheva is Cristiano Ronaldo.

bijon, I got a couple of questions that might explain a few things.

1) You think Torres and Drogba are also better than Henry, right?
2) Who's had a better career and is better in your opinion - Pirlo or Lampard or Gerrard?
3) Who is better - Maradona, Pele, Van Basten, or Rooney?
4) Who are the best 3 coaches in the world in your opinion?
5) How old are u?


Other news today:
-- calciomercato reports on a Seedorf + Huntelaar <--> Robinho swap....mmmm delicious

-- Milan have Emirates as the sponsor is only the beginning..Al-Maktoum family have bigger plans this summer to buy out the club.

-- Real offered Benzema to Milan for 25 million. (IMO, Dzeko >> Benzema)

-- Nesta & Pato are ready
some good news after a disastrous couple of weeks:
http://www.milannews.it/?action=read&idnotizia=17583

I think it says that Nesta will play against Udinese and Pato will be start from the bench, but will be available for sure against Man Utd.

Originally Posted by bijon

I'm not talking about accomplishments, I'm talking about ability. I've seen videos of pretty much every big goal Shevchenko has scored, the chip from outside the box against Juve, the goals against Inter, the goals against Roma and Lazio. I've also seen him screw up some really simple chances and make poor choices when presented with a goal scoring opportunity.

Give me an in form Drogba, Rooney or Torres vs an in form Shevchenko anyday and we'll see whose team will win.

Drogba has matured nicely , he was 26 when he went to chelsea and wasn't prolific until he was 28 he has 123 goals in 298 career games and is 32 soon he is playing great but is no way near the in form Sheva we saw at Milan.

Rooney is playing great at the moment but blows hot and cold so far this season he has been good , but scoring hat tricks against bottom of the table teams doesn't make him better than Sheva , when rooney is top scorer in the EPL 4 or 5 times top scorer in the CL and European player of the year then you may just may have an argument.

Torres is similar to Shevchenko but has never been the top scorer in la liga or the Epl or the CL , he has one major honour in his career with spain nothing at club level , so again the goals that sheva scored for Milan and Kiev won competitions his clubs.

And because a 30 year old Sheva who went to Chelsea after tearing ligaments and playing a full season and then the world cup and straight back into the league in mid August , wasn't as good as an injury free 27 year old Sheva doesn't mean that any of the above were better.

If we can somehow get Benzema for 25 mil, we shouldn't even hesitate for a second. For a guy his age, track record and potential, 25 mil is a huge bargain. Dzeko is nice, but Benzema is the better prospect between the two.

Originally Posted by slifersd

If we can somehow get Benzema for 25 mil, we shouldn't even hesitate for a second. For a guy his age, track record and potential, 25 mil is a huge bargain. Dzeko is nice, but Benzema is the better prospect between the two.

^^^^Can of WORMS!!!

Originally Posted by bijon

I'm not talking about accomplishments, I'm talking about ability. I've seen videos of pretty much every big goal Shevchenko has scored, the chip from outside the box against Juve, the goals against Inter, the goals against Roma and Lazio. I've also seen him screw up some really simple chances and make poor choices when presented with a goal scoring opportunity.

Give me an in form Drogba, Rooney or Torres vs an in form Shevchenko anyday and we'll see whose team will win.

Klinsman at least from my recollections never really scored jaw dropping goals. He just scored goals. Would you say Torres, Drogba and Rooney are better than him then?

You really cannot judge a player's quality by just watching videos highlight of him on youtube. I mean if thats the case, you will probably think Franco Baresi was a great striker for Milan.
Don't let the modern day marketing and commercials fool you. Shevchenko during his prime was the top 3 strikers in his generations. And of the three you mentioned, to me only Rooney has the potential to be better than Sheva. Drogba is just a physical force, but he never plays in Serie A, with tighter and stronger defenders. Torres got great speed and but really lacks technical abilities, as if his team is playing a counter attack game, he will be awesome, but once the other team is camping out in their own half, he struggles.

Point is that, those three might be great strikers now but compare to Sheva in his prime, they are still not quite there yet. As Sheva was a Titan among giants.

Originally Posted by hitmannq8

Nope Dev that doesn't.. I started watching football in 02/03 and there's no way in the world I would think Torres can be as good as Sheva. This guy probably watches the EPL a bit too much and is influenced by their commentators and their fans. He doesn't understand that the EPL has never had in its history a more complete striker than Sheva. Maybe the only player that arguably was better than Sheva is Cristiano Ronaldo.

It depends though. In your case I presume you have watched more of Sheva than Bijon and only seeing Sheva's goals (as bijon has) is not enough to judge his ability.

Apparently it looks unlikely we'll get Dzeko due to his price.

Originally Posted by bijon

I'm not talking about accomplishments, I'm talking about ability. I've seen videos of pretty much every big goal Shevchenko has scored, the chip from outside the box against Juve, the goals against Inter, the goals against Roma and Lazio. I've also seen him screw up some really simple chances and make poor choices when presented with a goal scoring opportunity.

Give me an in form Drogba, Rooney or Torres vs an in form Shevchenko anyday and we'll see whose team will win.

-In form Drogba 2003-2004(O.MARSEILLE) UEFA C.L-he score 7 goals.O.M only managed to qualify on group stage.
-Drogba in Chelsea days,2004-2005 till present day, UEFA CL-He scores 26 goals.Chelsea yet to win CL,runners up in 07-08,


-Rooney in Everton days,EVERTON NEVER QUALIFY IN CL.
-Rooney in M.U days 2004-2005 till present day,UEFA CL-scores 16 goals.M.U win in 07-08,runners up in 08-09.Ok, he wins but we know CR7 is M.U's best players,became top scorer in tournament(8 goals),CL best player not to mention FIFA world player of the year.In 07-08,Rooney only scores 4 goals in 11 games.in 08-09,scores 4 goals in 13 games.


-Torres in At.Madrid- in his last 2 years in At.Madrid(05-06,06-07),Athletico did not qualify in CL.
-Torres in Liverpool days,2007-08 till present day,UEFA CL-scores 8 goals,Liverpool yet to win C.L with him.
-He wins EURO 08 allright but his only significant contribute is scores the only goals in finals.to be honest,spain triumph is more on overall team effort.I can see at least 4 players are above Torres in that tournament.they are Casillas(his heroic penalty shoot out vs Italy),Villa(top scorer),Xavi(tournament best player)and last but not least Iniesta(the unsung heroes).it's true that his goal won the cup for Spain but so do Trezeguet in 2000 or Bierhoff in 96.so, it nothing new if you ask me.



-SHEVA in D.Kiev days,UEFA CL-97-98, 6 goals,Q.final.
UEFA CL-98-99,10 goals,Semi final.CL TOP SCORER
-SHEVA in Milan days, UEFA CL-99-2006, 37 GOALS.CHAMPIONS IN 93-94.UNLUCKY NOT TO WIN IN 04-05,TOP SCORER IN 05-06,BALLON D'OR IN 2004.


By the way, i'm not include domestic achievement because it's like comparing orange to apple.there are serie A fans,EPL fans,Bundesliga fans La liga,Eridivisie,le championnat,etc,etc,etc....... international stage is what matters.besides, UEFA C.Lis the most prestige tournament other than world cup where " cream of the cream" performs.by far the most important cup clubwise for neutral. The statistics never lies.......so make your own conclussion.

Sorry Bijon, Sheva's a legend and way above the great strikers at the moment. Don't let his time at Chelsea fool you, Sheva is up there with Ronaldo and Van Basten.

Sheva, Batigol, Ronaldo, man Serie A had great strikers at the turn of the Millennium.

according to my last post Milan wins CL with Sheva in 02-03 not 93-94 sorry, my mistakes