Banter 2009/2010

Originally Posted by nefremo

The thing about the wingbacks is that......we might actually have a world class one in our team. One that also happens to be world class as a CB too.......Thiago Silva. I am absolutely positive he can play as a RB and do it very very very well. So if we can buy a CB that can step in and play (Bonucci) then we can have a backline of Antonini?-Bonucci-Nesta-Silva.....obviously we can rotate and rest Nesta by putting Silva in the center and then playing either Zambrotta, Antonini, etc on the right.

this guy could play anywhere! he is a very good dribbler

Originally Posted by nefremo

Barcelona is not a greater club then Milan. They have been a BETTER club in the past few years........but there is no way that they are a greater club then Milan. As a matter of fact they can only dream of having the European success that Milan has had in the past 20 years.

Having said that......there is absolutely no chance that we can even dream about Messi.

With the age and rate Messi is playing and the other youth products for Barcelona. There is a very good chance that this Messi's Barcelona can win more than any other team in the next 10 years. Thus what Milan did in the past 20 yrs, Barcelona can do it in 15 as they already got 2CLs in the past 4 yrs. Most likely another one this year as I just don't think any team can play with them at the moment. Also, their team is united from top to bottom. Their president won't be selling any of their top players without replacements. Lastly, their youth department is second to none to any other teams in the world. On top of that, Messi-22, Iniesta-25,Pique-23, Pedro-22, Brojan-19, Ibra-28, Xavi-30, Pugol and Marquez-31, Alves and Torue-28 and Keita-30. That's a very young team and those players are capable of top notch performance for another 3 yrs at least.
What scares me is the fact that once Henry is gone this summer, Laporta will sign someone younger, faster and better to replace Henry.

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Just I remind for some of you, my friends...

Don't forget Leonardo first quote(as Milan coach) about what type of scheme he wanted for Milan. He said in clear words, he wanted his Milan playing like 1982 Brazil NT!

Most of us were young to remember, but since Brazil's 82 NT is the most loved team but 70's and 58's here, I had a chance to watch all the games on TV several times in reprises.
----------------------------V Peres(horrible keeper)------------------

-Leandro(one of the best ever!)--Oscar--Marinho--------Junior--------

--------------T. Cerezo-----------------Falcão-----------------------

------------------Socraters--------------Zico------------------------

-------------------------------------------------Eder----------------
-------------------------------Serginho(biggest flop of Brazil NT)------

Leonardo never wanted to play with wings, but he also didn't expect to loose Kaká(his #10). After that, at the beginning of the season, he tried Ronaldinho in the role Kaká played(and Zico back in 82), but our Gaucho just wanted to play at the freak left line

The 82 team played at A 4-4-2 and sometimes a 4-3-1-2, and that was his plans to Milan until Kaká departure and Ronaldinho dependence.

As I said at the start of the season(and in December), it was a mistake to do the same thing Parreira tried to do in Brazil NT and failed. Adapt the team to Ronaldinho, playing him where he likes. But I can't blame Leo that much because with the "team" he received, or he takes all he can of Ronaldinho or he was dead.

Sorry for the big post, guys... but it's just to remember that Leonardo initial plans were a Brazil 82 NT copy, and thats screams NO WINGER...

Leo's first quote also said he wanted a 4-3-3. But in both speeches he spoke about flying fullbacks and overlapping play. (I also think he knew Kaka was gone)

When he said 1982 brazil it wasn't as much formation AS a mentality, a fluidity, interchanging passing everyone defending, and in some ways similar to barca. From what i've seen 1982 brazil players like zico and socrates pressured defenses, which Leo wants.

I mean if he really wanted to do 4-2-2-2 he could w/ seedorf @ RAM, and pato central. Might even be better.


PErsonally I just hope management backs Leo. He has shown he's bright, and can be better than pep guardiola in my opinion IF he is given resources. He's asked for power in transfer window and more imput on players, and NOT a raise. That says SOO much about him in my opinion


IN Leo I trust.

Leo can be better than Pep if he has the right players.

To me, I think only Flamini, T.Silva, Pato and Nesta are the right players to play in Leo's starting 11. Maybe even Ambro and Antonini to some extend. As I think Leo wants constant movement and pressing from all his players. Dinho might still be the most talented player with the ball, but he does not press as much as Leo's ideally want.

While I think Messi is a fantastic player, I think all this talk about him being the best player of all time is simply, stupid. He is no where near that. This is the same talk that we heard about Ronaldinho during his heyday at Barca, and it was ridiculous then, but everyone took it seriously.

Messi has yet to do anything on the International stage. That's the problem, and I don't really see him shaking that. The best players of all time are arguably Puskas, Pele, Cruyff, Maradonna, Zidane. Of course, my personal opinion is not widely shared, but, I don't think Messi has done enough to be in the same category as those players.

In terms of Barca being a team that will be unbeatable and whatever, that is clearly not the case. Watch Barca play Chelsea last year, that is the blueprint to taking on Barca. Watching Barca boss Arsenal was not surprising, not only were they missing important players, but they do not have the steel to grind out a 1-0. Arsenal with Vieira, Gilberto, and an actual striker (Henry) would have been a very different proposition to the circus show that Wenger prefers. Maybe if he'd realize that he needs some no-nonsense type of players, he'd maybe be able to win something?

Anyways, Barca. It will be interesting to see them against Inter. I think Inter are very a different team to their early CL form. While it has seen their Serie A form become a bit more sketchy (which is fine by me), seeing how Inter dealt with Chelsea and CSKA, I don't think Barca will have the same easy sort of open game.

I think with Barca you have two options: either you out-hustle them and play physical, like Chelsea, or you fight fire with fire and control the ball and strain their 4-3-3 with attacking pressure, which is what they do, but are not designed to combat. Clearly, Mourinho does not have the ball handlers to use the second, but he does have clinical finishers in Milito and Eto'o (when it counts only, otherwise he misses ten chances).

Barca's system is new, but it will be figured out and adopted by others (like ourselves) and this is nothing as revolutionary as Ancelotti's 4-3-1-2 that took Europe by storm. It also is not as balanced, and this makes finding places to exploit easier. With the 4-3-1-2 of Milan, you had stability, in that the team could really pull back to soak up pressure. Barca's 4-3-3, is not designed to soak up pressure, it controls the ball and is dependent on winning the ball back quickly.

As for the Barca model of a youth setup. I just realized this fact about us, when we talk about spending.. Barca has raised Bojan, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Valdes, Busquets, and Pedro. This means that they did not pay transfer fees for them, obviously. That means that the transfer budgets can be far more focused and be a lot larger. Besides the fact that they own their stadium, which we should try to do ourselves.

How does that relate to us? Think about Milan from 02-07. We relied on Maldini, Costacurta, Cafu, Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso, Ambro, Sheva, Rui Costa, Simic, Stam, Serginho, Kaka, etc. Maldini, Costacurta, youth products, while Seedorf (straight swap), Cafu (free), Pirlo (complicated, but, straight swap), Stam (free). We spent big on Sheva, Rui, and Inzaghi. However, the bulk of the team was not major signings. Just like Barca.

Yes, Barca relies on youth products, and that seems something that we are following, but, the affect is the same. We relied on a mixture of free players and youth players, meaning that we could dedicate more money to transfers as the backbone of the team rested in players we did break the bank in order to get.

I wonder if we got players like Seedorf and Pirlo, in the same manner in which we got them, would we complain? I wonder that, a lot. The point is that Barca's youth directed policy is not new, Milan, Man Utd, Real, have all used their youth products to great affect. We need to return to this youth policy, and hopefully, continue getting good players for small fees.

Originally Posted by Gabriel489

Leo can be better than Pep if he has the right players.

To me, I think only Flamini, T.Silva, Pato and Nesta are the right players to play in Leo's starting 11. Maybe even Ambro and Antonini to some extend. As I think Leo wants constant movement and pressing from all his players. Dinho might still be the most talented player with the ball, but he does not press as much as Leo's ideally want.

don't think flams is any more special than abate or antonini. They are all just high energy guys who work hard. Squad players. Not a knock, IMO we need MORE of these.....

But i follow ur general point

Sorry Samaldinho in general your right about our signings, but we spent 10 million on Stam.

I think if we listen to Leo & Braida we can get good young players, about once b&g speak about signings we are screwed - yepes, favalli, mancini...

Leo - Kaka, Pato, Silva.
Braida - Sheva, but most of his recommendations go out the window, despite being great players.

Leo must focus on the style, and continue his studies over the summer. Not before taking a good break to recharge and reflect. I've improved my coaching philosophy this way.

Originally Posted by Milano84

don't think flams is any more special than abate or antonini. They are all just high energy guys who work hard. Squad players. Not a knock, IMO we need MORE of these.....

But i follow ur general point

You say that but this season there's no doubt that Antonini and Abate (particularly Antonini) have been key players for our side. Without them we've been awful in the fullback areas and they've been far more than just squad players.

Similar can be said about Flamini. With his energy in midfield we've managed to protect the defence better this year. Rino hasn't been too good, but his qualities were needed and Flamini offered similar qualities. He's not as great as we'd hope he'd be (it's not too late), but very important still

Nice post Samaldinho, but have to disagree with some of the points.

First of all, I think Messi is by far the best player now and if he continues to grow, barring any injury, he will only get better. But, to me, unless he leads Argentina to WC glory, he is no where near the likes of the Maradona and company. Heck, I am not even going to defend Argentina does not have any players to play with Messi, as Maradona was a one man Argentina team who won WC in 86 and could have won in 90 also.
Personally, I don't think Barcelona plays a new system that people have not seen before. Rather, they play a style that a lot of teams wanted to play but ended up failing, mostly b/c they don't have the players to do so. Look at MIlan 7 yrs ago, we might be the KING of Europe and BIG TEAMS killer, but how often have we watched Milan owning all the possessions against defensive sides but just could not break the other team's 8-9 men defense? Well, Barcelona is breaking them now, mostly with ease.

As for being unbeatable...., well, any team will be destine to have their weakness, off day and error. It is the fact that can the other team capture the off moment of Barcelona that matters. I mean on paper before every match, we all pretty much agree on what Milan needed to do to win the match.....but can Milan executive the game plan is another story. You mentioned that Barcelona have trouble playing physical sides, but how many truly skilled physical sides are there beside Chelsea. Inter might cause Barcelona problems, but can the tactics of JM and Inter be enough to beat the form of Messi and Company?

I do agree with what you said about the youth part, but MIlan is light years behind Barcelona, ManU, and Arsenal. Heck, they are even behind Juve. THe thing with youth is that for every Messi, there will be about 1000 Di Gennaro, for every Iniesta, there will be about 100 Strusser.

Originally Posted by Milano84

don't think flams is any more special than abate or antonini. They are all just high energy guys who work hard. Squad players. Not a knock, IMO we need MORE of these.....

But i follow ur general point

Right players for Leo's ideal starting 11. You really can't have a midfield of Kaka, CR9, Messi and D.Silva

Originally Posted by hitmannq8

Forget both Honda and Dzagoev..look at how great Balotelli is. Tactical intelligence, strength, dribble, everything. He can be Italy's greatest ever.

Are you serious my friend? We all know who is the greatest ever... no.3

We are linked with Cacau again. I am keeping myself out of the mercato becouse I dont want to get dissapointed again. But after Yepes, Cacau? dear god, this is getting worse by the minute. hopefully this is all rumours but I'm really getting affraid. Please galliani and silvio do something good for a change! cvnts

Since Van Bommel is free, I am pretty sure, Galli will sign him.

Feel better now.

Originally Posted by Samaldinho

While I think Messi is a fantastic player, I think all this talk about him being the best player of all time is simply, stupid. He is no where near that. This is the same talk that we heard about Ronaldinho during his heyday at Barca, and it was ridiculous then, but everyone took it seriously.

Messi has yet to do anything on the International stage. That's the problem, and I don't really see him shaking that. The best players of all time are arguably Puskas, Pele, Cruyff, Maradonna, Zidane. Of course, my personal opinion is not widely shared, but, I don't think Messi has done enough to be in the same category as those players.

In terms of Barca being a team that will be unbeatable and whatever, that is clearly not the case. Watch Barca play Chelsea last year, that is the blueprint to taking on Barca. Watching Barca boss Arsenal was not surprising, not only were they missing important players, but they do not have the steel to grind out a 1-0. Arsenal with Vieira, Gilberto, and an actual striker (Henry) would have been a very different proposition to the circus show that Wenger prefers. Maybe if he'd realize that he needs some no-nonsense type of players, he'd maybe be able to win something?

Anyways, Barca. It will be interesting to see them against Inter. I think Inter are very a different team to their early CL form. While it has seen their Serie A form become a bit more sketchy (which is fine by me), seeing how Inter dealt with Chelsea and CSKA, I don't think Barca will have the same easy sort of open game.

I think with Barca you have two options: either you out-hustle them and play physical, like Chelsea, or you fight fire with fire and control the ball and strain their 4-3-3 with attacking pressure, which is what they do, but are not designed to combat. Clearly, Mourinho does not have the ball handlers to use the second, but he does have clinical finishers in Milito and Eto'o (when it counts only, otherwise he misses ten chances).

Barca's system is new, but it will be figured out and adopted by others (like ourselves) and this is nothing as revolutionary as Ancelotti's 4-3-1-2 that took Europe by storm. It also is not as balanced, and this makes finding places to exploit easier. With the 4-3-1-2 of Milan, you had stability, in that the team could really pull back to soak up pressure. Barca's 4-3-3, is not designed to soak up pressure, it controls the ball and is dependent on winning the ball back quickly.

Very good post, again. Of course, I want to comment.

First Messi... To start, he's the best player in the world, bar none. But, to claim he's the best ever, it's ridiculous. You're right when you mention Ronaldinho, he was hyped as the best ever too, before that it was Ronaldo, etc. The fact is, or there is many young journalists (like goal.com, where all these hypes usually started, they're all 22-25 yrs old), or people tend to forget quickly.

Back in 2005/2006, Ronaldinho was simply unplayable, whenever the ball is, ground, air, everywhere, there was no way to take the ball off him. Then, before that (that is about "forget quickly") it was Ronaldo, "El phenomeno", who was tearing defenses apart, no matter how strong defense were, it wasn't important, Barcelona, Inter, Spain, Italy, Brazil NT, no matter, he was unstoppable. From all of these, only Ronaldo proved his hype of being among the best ever.

But, what makes a player a legend, it's not that he's (just) unplayable for two years, it's two important things:

1. The way he reacts when he and his team doesn't have the best of games;

2. How good he's consistently through the years.

I want to add one player into equation. Roberto Baggio, the best I ever saw. I remember first WC I saw, it was USA '94., I was a fan of Italian NT, and there was first elimination phase, against Nigeria. I saw a pathetic Italy, Italy who was losing 1:0 and was sure to exit, Baggio was playing bad, just as before that game, it was two minutes from time, when the same Baggio showed the moment of brilliance to put the game into extra time. It was from nothing. If I remember correctly, he barely touched the ball before that. Then, same thing, Ronaldinho, the game which most of us surely remember, Milan - Barcelona, 2005/2006 CL semi-finals at San Siro, Barca played bad, Ronaldinho was masterfully marked by Gattuso, we controlled the tempo, we were making chances, and then, suddenly, one moment of brilliance, one brilliant through ball that only two men in the world of football could pull at the time (the other is Totti), and we were out of competition. The team who played better and was making the most of chances was eliminated because of one moment of brilliance by one player. Then, Ronaldo, WC 2002, finals, Germany - Brazil, Germany was a better team, before Ronaldo made and inch perfect shot to beat, which seemed at the time, unbeatable Oliver Kahn.
About, consistency, both Baggio and Ronaldo were unhappy about injuries. But, from day one, to end day, Baggio played great. When he lost his pace, it was his brilliant technique and his brain that kept him great. Ronaldo, too. Most of us remembers him in Milan. It was an 99 kgs player that almost teared Serie A defenses apart, it was ridiculous. On contair, when Dinho lost his pace, he lost everything. But, still, this season, he's the passer to beat.

The first thing is that I don't see in Messi. When it's not his day, or when Barcelona plays bad, he's bad, he can't do nothing. Maybe he needs to grow up, still he's only 22. Then, thing about consistency, he barely played three years at the highest level, so it's still early to talk about him. Also, he did nothing at international level yet. Both Baggio and Ronaldo excelled on international level. After all, would cups are the thing that counts most.

So, I don't think that Messi can be told in the same breath like Roberto Baggio or Ronaldo, perhaps sometimes in the future (which I honestly doubt), but now it's ridiculous to talk that way.

Let alone Maradona, or Pele. Every great player that played through '60's and '70's and continue to work in football until these days, will tell you "Pele is the best I ever saw". For example, Dragan Dzajic, one of Former Yugoslavia best players ever, for whom Pele claims that he's the best natural talent ever, claims that Pele is the best he ever saw. All the hype about Maradona better than Pele came from younger generation. Anyway, to conclude my long post, there's only one king of football, and his name is Edison Arantes do Nascimento. Bar none.

Originally Posted by Revolver

We should take Simplicio, he's a great player, not too old and REALLY can play in every position in midfield. He's an AM who can play DM without ANY problems, as he has combination of attacking and defensive intelligence hard to find nowdays and great work-rate. Also, strong, pretty quick, good with the ball at his feet, and solid passer too. A true box-to-box, if you like it that way. He would be almost perfect for Seedorf's position, and still he comes free. With him alongside Flamini and Pirlo, we would find good balance of power and speed in midfield.

For J. Cole, I don't agree, the only position he really can excel is winger position.

You mean that Simplicio is not a winger, right? IMO, we need a WC potential for Seedorf's position because the Dutch can't be counted on, while Dinho & Pato only need subs (maybe Cacau).

He is still a good addtion to our squad. Galliani is a bit slow, perhaps he doesn't want any conflict with Palermo, because we need Kjaer & Pastore from them