Banter 2009/2010

Anyone still remember Thiago Neves?

shegs
u really are hoping this milan team to win scudetto this season arent u?
well
im not
that is why i think leo has done a good job with this milan
with this team milan should have been 5 or 6 or even less
but what do we see here, milan a couple weeks ago battling for scudetto
and can still win it at the end of the season ( if miracle happens though)

Can't believe there are still Leo doubters here.

Putting aside what the team has done so far this season, and lets go back to last summer.

1. Who do you think should be Milan Coach if Leo did not take the job?
Tassotti, Donadoni, Guilet, Van Basten or Maldini??? Beside Maldini and Tassotti, all the other three failed big time. And I doubt Cap wants to coach and Tassotti just reminds me of Carlo No. 2.
To be honest, I doubt any great coach would even consider coming to coach Milan knowing that Kaka will be sold and the MGT refuse to spend money.

2. Leo wanted players but he did not get them, heck Berlu and Galli even came up with DENTAL problem to stop a signing. IF you are Leo, what would you be thinking in your head?

3. Yes, Leo said he is fine/happy with the squad in the summer. SO WHAT, Berlu and Galli said the squad is full of champions, do you actually believe them? Leo said that mainly due to PR, as he can't come out and say the squad is crap.

I really don't get how some of you are blaming Leo for not missing chance to win the league, but none of you are giving him credits for providing opportunities for Milan to win the league.

Originally Posted by Bosniaco

Anyone still remember Thiago Neves?

Yep, "The amazing Thiago Neves"
At least it's documented in "Kaká's father..." topic, what I said about him when his name was linked to us. Overrated and over hyped. Some friends here in Brazil called me crazy at that time, because the guy was just chosen the MVP of Brasileirão, and I said he would be a bust in Europe.

Typical player Brazilian media loves to hype(from attack, and that scores). Fábio Junior, Sobis, Jô, Luis Adriano, Leandro Lima, Ricardo Oliveira(good for a middle team) and the list goes on...

But it was clear he would need a lot of work to adapt itself to European game, and a big change of personality. Whenever I can nowadays, I ask my friends in which big team he's playing right now

Originally Posted by Gabriel489

Can't believe there are still Leo doubters here.

Putting aside what the team has done so far this season, and lets go back to last summer.

1. Who do you think should be Milan Coach if Leo did not take the job?
Tassotti, Donadoni, Guilet, Van Basten or Maldini??? Beside Maldini and Tassotti, all the other three failed big time. And I doubt Cap wants to coach and Tassotti just reminds me of Carlo No. 2.
To be honest, I doubt any great coach would even consider coming to coach Milan knowing that Kaka will be sold and the MGT refuse to spend money.

2. Leo wanted players but he did not get them, heck Berlu and Galli even came up with DENTAL problem to stop a signing. IF you are Leo, what would you be thinking in your head?

3. Yes, Leo said he is fine/happy with the squad in the summer. SO WHAT, Berlu and Galli said the squad is full of champions, do you actually believe them? Leo said that mainly due to PR, as he can't come out and say the squad is crap.

I really don't get how some of you are blaming Leo for not missing chance to win the league, but none of you are giving him credits for providing opportunities for Milan to win the league.

Because when someone want to hate, it will hate.

You, Geo, Dru, AC and the others, with the patience(and high level) only found here in MM, knocked down with class the most contradictory, unfair and clueless "arguments" that I saw as a member of MM... and I saw a lot during these years

When somebody crystallizes an idea, it's over.

Originally Posted by sylrus

shegs
u really are hoping this milan team to win scudetto this season arent u?
well
im not
that is why i think leo has done a good job with this milan
with this team milan should have been 5 or 6 or even less
but what do we see here, milan a couple weeks ago battling for scudetto
and can still win it at the end of the season ( if miracle happens though)

You know what, sylrus?
After read your post, I started to imagine the quotes from Silvio if a miracle happened. We would hear crazy but funny things

L'hai voluto tu. O forse no?
17.04.2010 00.01 di Francesco Somma articolo letto 1118 volte
Fonte: milannews.it

© foto di Giacomo Morini
Dubbi, sospetti, paure e confusione: ecco cosa trova chi mette le mani nell’enorme e torbido calderone Milan. I dubbi sono quelli di sempre, quelli legati al futuro, ma anche al presente di due colori che navigano a vista e che talvolta sembrano divertirsi a farsi male da soli. Di dubbi, sul prosieguo dell’avventura di Leonardo sulla panchina del Milan ce n’erano davvero pochi: più che i continui battibecchi con il presidente Berlusconi, a fugarli gradualmente è stato lo stesso “Caipirinha”, sempre distante e seccato sul capitolo “Prossima stagione”. Sarebbe bastato tirare in ballo il rimanente anno di contratto, anziché glissare mostrandosi sprezzante del futuro e concentrato su un presente nebuloso ed intricato. Ma tant’è: dove c’è gusto non ci si rimette, non ha senso fingere ciò che non si vuole, e se Pellegatti – dopo aver dichiarato di fare il tifo per la permanenza del brasiliano – e Serafini affermano che il sodalizio si è spezzato tre giorni orsono, le speranze di rivedere il raggiante sudamericano sulla panchina del Milan il prossimo agosto, sono verosimilmente ridotte al lumicino. Per qualcuno, forse, è meglio così, ma a ben guardare, tutto ciò che possiamo dire è che se finirà sarà stato comunque bello. Ci saremo comunque divertiti. Degli obiettivi prefissati, quello più vicino (qualificazione diretta alla Champions) è anche quello minimo nelle gerarchie di inizio stagione, ma chi se la prende solo con te ha evidentemente le idee confuse. Tu ci hai messo il cuore, la faccia e il coraggio di cambiare. Ci hai ridato il Ronaldinho migliore, una difesa a tratti invidiabile, un gioco più veloce e meno prevedibile, grazie a due terzini (Antonini ed Abate) che danno l’anima. Ma perché una macchina vada sempre al massimo è necessario che ogni pezzo sia al posto giusto e ben collaudato, e che in caso di irrimediabili sostituzioni, i ricambi siano di sicuro affidamento. Anche tu hai sbagliato, lo dicono i risultati, forse gli unici a darti torto senza appello, perché intorno, chi mastica calcio ti dà ragione, dicendoti che non è colpa tua, che hai fatto anche troppo per essere un esordiente. Che chi ti ha chiesto di accettare la sfida e di dare il massimo per ottenere qualcosa – quando si inizia un’opera senza un progetto, quello che si riesce a portare a casa è tutto guadagnato – non ti ha fornito l’equipaggio adeguato. Stando così le cose, comunque dovesse andare, tu usciresti di scena con la coscienza pulita ed un’esperienza in più in un bagaglio che lontano da Milano potrebbe riempirsi di soddisfazioni. Vere. Noi? Noi restiamo qui, con le facce incredule, un pizzico di rabbia e la mente affollata di dubbi. In fondo tu sei uno bravo, lo hai dimostrato in campo, in panchina, e pure da dirigente: ci hai portato fior di giocatori in un deserto popolato da ex campioni. Per un bel po’ di tempo, il tuo entusiasmo e le tue intuizioni hanno eclissato tutto e tutti, facendo persino traballare poltrone logore e dure da mollare. Coraggio, grinta e competenza: avevi tutto per diventare il dirigente perfetto in questa società. Invece ti hanno "promosso" allenatore, e stavolta no, non è stato solo uno scherzo del destino.

@ drucurl,
1) i take it that to you a Bonucci/ Ranocchia pairing is more secure than a TS/Nesta combo. Truly remarkable!
2) IF YOU ACTUALLY READ MY LAST POST........
3) Confidence 'theory': Alternate proof- yohann Gourcouff.
4) kiko. hw could i forget his commendable performance in CL against us and Bayern! Oops, that was Rafael. of fergie's 'bright young players', Km is probably the dimmest.
@ Geo, not one match, BUT OVER TWO LEGS.
P.S.
I never said, or implied that Milan was/is underachieving. Examples of underachieving teams are Juve and Liverpool. What i'm saying is that Milan should be top of serie a, but we aren't. Because of Leo's inability to vary his tactics.
@ Sylrus, you've got no idea hw much i want Milan to win!!!
@ Brasiliero, you're doing a great job. Thank you.

My last word on the Leo issue (hopefully):
Leo has ideas on where the team should be, but until he implements those ideas and successfully creates 'Leo's team', we shouldn't praise him to high heavens.

Originally Posted by Nalx

In Italy, I think the answer is yes. MU, Madrid, and Barca have already became huge, profitable companies because they have their own stadiums (while in Italy the stadium is owned by the city council if I'm not mistaken) and more importantly, they're very good at marketing.

You're partly correct, but right now most big clubs are struggling financially (we're just one of the ones showing it outright). MU have a huge debt and are in serious financial trouble. Liverpool also have a very large debt and again are struggling to come up with funds. Chelsea, whilst they have a huge debt, it's internal and therefore they can still manage to avoid the problem United and 'Pool have.

Spain is very different, as the clubs are bailed out by the state. Both Real and Barca can amount huge debts only to have it paid off for them and therefore that's how they cope.

Italy has always relied on patrons (with exception to Juve who are structured differently) who will continuously pump money into the club. The clubs are riddled with debt but they're always covered by the owners, so until recent years it's not been noticeable.

Originally Posted by Vulli

Galliani about Leo's future

Leonardo had no intention of managing Milan I persuaded him last year. And I will convince him to stay this year too, regardless of his two-year deal. I think I will manage it. And Berlusconi wants it too, you must believe me…

That just reeks of desperation.

I'm with Shegs, he's right. How can be possible that Bayern have the squad to compete with Manchester United and to eliminate them, and we were humiliated by the same Manchester?! OK, humiliation happened because we were without certain players, but we lost at home too and we had almost all players. Look at Bayern's squad, disaster after disaster, bad keeper, average center backs, one side back good, other side back average, we have three (count them, three) defensive mids better than Van Bommel, Pranjic as a playmaker I don't even want to comment, the same Muller as a striker, and Olić is average striker also (he's not better than Borriello) but he's a fighter. All they have are side midfielders, and just one, Robben, their only class player, because whoever watched 90 minutes of Bayern this season sees that Ribery is not more than "good" this season. And also, Abate is MUCH better than Rafael and still Ferguson managed to beat us with Rafael in the team... No one can't persuade me that Bayern has better team than us. No one!

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Good points, Geo...
We clearly looks clueless when the subject isn't a hyped player... at least in Brazilian market. Hernanes is amazing, but he is well recognized.

Do you know what shocks me? How a guy like Jucilei isn't one of our main objectives here in Brazil? Corinthians needs money, NOW! They also aren't hard sellers, and there are 2 players that are more hyped(for the market) than Jucilei in the squad, Elias and Dentinho.

I understand that for the normal fan, I mean, the one didn't care about scouting, Jucilei doesn't appear a high priority, because in Brazil, 99% the press just know to hype offensive players. So he's clearly a unknown and the ugly duck right now.

But you just need to watch some games, and see what he's doing without be a focal point of Corinthians... and in big games, as in Libertadores this week. The DM set up the 2 goals, showing dribbling skills in the first and power and pass in the second.

I'm starting to doubt we have scouts here, because every time we were linked with a no hyped name, the result was a disaster(Mattione, Cardaccio, Vudez, Grimme). It's easy(and dangerous) just to keep an eye on the Darlings of the media here in Brazil. First, because some are clearly overrated, some don't fit in Serie A game, and third, because we let several gems escape between our hands.

Jucilei is screaming a future WC player, and more important, playing for Corinthians, what means a more reasonable price... I just want to know what these so called scouts are doing right now(regarding Brazil).

Well, I'm afraid it's not only with Brazil ...
If we look at our last transfers:
- Flamini wasn't an unknown player at all (he had the "new Gattuso" name)
- Gourcuff was already very hyped in France (let's not forget he arrived with the "new Zidane" name pasted on his face)
- Pato was very hyped in Brazil (and even in the world when he scored in the World Cup of clubs against Barcelona if I'm not wrong)
- Thiago Silva was a known player in Brazil, maybe the most unknown in Europe among these 4 players

The problem is that I tried to take the only interesting or potentially interesting players we bought recently in Europe, but only found them and had to add the Brazilian prospects too (because just two names isn't really good to prove something !!) ...

The question is: Do we have any scout ?! If we do, where are they, what is their work, when will they manage to get interesting players ?

Why don't we try to take one or two scouts from teams like Benfica (Brazil) or Porto (Argentine), you know, guys who know their work, who have the aim of finding 2-3 potentially future stars for the smallest amount of money (even if sometimes, they buy a hyped player, but it's not like if these clubs did it each season), or even scouts from smaller teams but doing a good job with almost no money (the small club in Portugal finding Cissokho, I don't know if they were lucky, but they took the guy from nowhere in France, in 3rd division ... even in France, nobody knew him before going to Porto), or from financially average teams (Palermo with Cavani, Pastore - Napoli with Hamsik, Lavezzi).

EDIT: If we had the scouts of Benfica/Porto, we could buy, each season or almost, the two non-EU players we need in South America, for a more or less small amount of money, and buy one established player in Italy or more generally Europe. It would be enough (but before being able to do such a thing: we'll need a little more this summer and the following one) ...

For the last point (Palermo, Napoli), these teams are actually on a trend letting us think they will invest more than us in the coming years ... and it's why we should be worried, because if Juventus can get a proper management again and as a consequence, a good team in the coming years, if Palermo and Napoli keep investing, and if we just do what we do nowadays, well, even a place for Europa League will be a "dream".

In Italy, Fiorentina is going to suffer this summer: they're the Italian Bordeaux (or Bordeaux is the French Fiorentina ) ... Everyone wants their coach to be the NT coach, this coach is very important to the eyes of the players, and the results are not very good, which means there could be no qualification for an European competition (for both: no CL, because Europa League shouldn't be their goal and never was).
That means there could be players to get in these both clubs, and by knowing the problems of management in Fiorentina (with the Della Valle leaving/coming + rumours), I think we could at least try to get one or two players from there without having to overspend (they will have no way to negotiate higher prices if they don't qualify for CL and the players ask to leave).

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

How you dare?!?!? I'm still here!!

I apologize !!
But aren"t you Leonardo hiding under a false identity on MM ?!

Originally Posted by Revolver

I'm with Shegs, he's right. How can be possible that Bayern have the squad to compete with Manchester United and to eliminate them, and we were humiliated by the same Manchester?! OK, humiliation happened because we were without certain players, but we lost at home too and we had almost all players. Look at Bayern's squad, disaster after disaster, bad keeper, average center backs, one side back good, other side back average, we have three (count them, three) defensive mids better than Van Bommel, Pranjic as a playmaker I don't even want to comment, the same Muller as a striker, and Olić is average striker also (he's not better than Borriello) but he's a fighter. All they have are side midfielders, and just one, Robben, their only class player, because whoever watched 90 minutes of Bayern this season sees that Ribery is not more than "good" this season. And also, Abate is MUCH better than Rafael and still Ferguson managed to beat us with Rafael in the team... No one can't persuade me that Bayern has better team than us. No one!

Abate better than Rafael ?
I would say they have the same level nowadays, but Rafael is 18 (or 19 now) and will probably be a WC player.

If you want to compare our team to the one of Bayern, well we don't have much more (argh, that gives me pain to say such a thing) ...

The problem is that again, someone compares two teams on just 2 games against the same opponent, which is again, useless ...

So I take again my example: we beat Catania away, Inter was litterally destroyed in Catania. Have we better players ?

Originally Posted by shegs1157

@ Geo, not one match, BUT OVER TWO LEGS.

If I don't count the first derby, it's because we were too far from Inter at that moment and it would be a lie to say we lost the title there. We were not up to the task. We simply had no chance to win, neither potentially nor really, and we should forget this game ...
With only one derby won (and so, it's why I use the second one, simply because we should have got a result: we were in form, they got their red card in first half ...), we would be in front of them in the table and just one point behind Roma. It's the turning game of our season and some "bad results" (again, we just have the same results as Inter against the 17 other teams) arrived then, probably because of this loss. Since the first Roma game until this second derby, we were like a F1 in a race of normal cars ... playing well, even with injured players, winning most of our games, and suddenly, it's like if our motor burnt and we're still trying to fix it.

Originally Posted by shegs1157

I never said, or implied that Milan was/is underachieving. Examples of underachieving teams are Juve and Liverpool. What i'm saying is that Milan should be top of serie a, but we aren't. Because of Leo's inability to vary his tactics.


My last word on the Leo issue (hopefully):
Leo has ideas on where the team should be, but until he implements those ideas and successfully creates 'Leo's team', we shouldn't praise him to high heavens.

Buddy, you claimed to never imply that our team "was/is underachieving" then the next moment you said "we should be on the top of seri A but we are not" That's quite contradictory isn't it my friend?

About "Leo's inability to vary his tactic" I think it has A LOT to do with "ideas on where the team should be". Like in my previous post I siad Leo did have his own idea of playing, he made it known publicly: the Brasil NT 1982. He asked for spesific players "to implement his ideas" and "to create Leo's team". And what did he got? A 3rd choice striker, Gooch (Ouch would be a more appropriate word), and a dentist's bill. If I'm not mistaken Brasileiro said that back then Brasil played with a trequartista instead of two SF like us. Leo didn't whine, he tried his idea with players at his disposal and we sucked. Then against Roma (and Madrid) he opted to play 4-3-3.

That my friend is what I call a variation of tactics.

Surprisingly, it worked mighty fine until December. Suddenly everbody wanted to proclaim their share in this. Heck, Berlu himself said that he was right in believing in Dinho.

Then the injuries set in. Pato and Nesta, both are essential players to our attack and defense, were down injured. Even the back-up players like Becks and Mancini were also out.

Then what kind of "vary his tactics" do you propose? 4-3-1-2 didn't work at all, 4-3-3 needed two SFs to really work. And more importantly, with players that we have now, how will your new tactics succeed?

Dinho was the only creative striker available since Pato out. Klaas, Bori, Pippo are all CF. In midfield, Pirlo and Seedorf, as expected due to their age, couldn't play consistently week in week out. Mancini was supposed to add some flair from the right side, and Becks with his crossings. But they're out. With only DMs more or less fit all the time this season, how are we supposed to try implement some new tactics? And don't make me tell what a joke half of our defenders are.

Here's what Mou said a couple of years ago. "It depends on the quality of the eggs. In the supermarket you have class one, two, or class three eggs. Some are more expensive than others and some give you better omelettes. So when the class one eggs are in Waitrose and you cannot go there, you have a problem."

Leo asked for class one eggs yet he received class three ones. He did all he could with FEW class one eggs he has (Dinho, Pato, Nesta, Silva), SOME class two eggs (Pirlo, Seedorf, Bori, Antonini, and some more), SOME class three eggs (Favalli, Marek, etc), and even DUDS like Kaladza and Oddo.

Now that half of his class one eggs were out practically since new year and yet we're still at #3 with a possibility to win the league (no matter how slim it may seem) how can we not praise him for his excellent job? Mou got almost all first class egges he wanted in Inter and even so they're just 3 points ahead of us (last night result excluded). Isn't that some kind of achievement, some prove from a rookie coach as if to say to his boss "See, imagine what I would've done had YOU given me players I, not you, but I wanted ".

First Leo was belittled, now instead of being thankful, the owner whines and whines everytime he opens his mouth. And instead of backing up the coach, refusing to talk anything but the final 5 games just like Leo's been doing, the president, the captain, the assistant coach all talk and talk about how they hope Leo would stay as if preparing the excuse early on: we want him to stay but HE decides to leave, hehe.

I can't speak for anybody but I think the way Leo was treated after all that he's done is the one that enrages some people here as it gives yet another signal towards what kind of future this club is heading to.

I gave the Bari example just to prove a point that a team with limited resources can cope with a bigger team, so please don't misinterprete my logic as:
'ESPANYOL-BEAT-BARCELONA-LAST-SEASON-SO-THEY-ARE-BETTER-THAN-REAL-AND-CHELSEA-AND-MAN. U'.

Originally Posted by Bosniaco

Anyone still remember Thiago Neves?

he is a bench warmer in a saudi-arabian club !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"do we continue playing 4-3-3?" if you ask me, it takes a real coach to try to turn our lazy midfielders into 3 players fitting into the system. even if flamini plays, there's is always pirlo and seedorf to bring the speed balance way down. if we continue playing with this formation, i believe leo will buy two midfielders thsi mercato or will "ask" for them to more accurate because i trust the guys's coaching mentality and descisions.

Originally Posted by shegs1157

I gave the Bari example just to prove a point that a team with limited resources can cope with a bigger team, so please don't misinterprete my logic as:
'ESPANYOL-BEAT-BARCELONA-LAST-SEASON-SO-THEY-ARE-BETTER-THAN-REAL-AND-CHELSEA-AND-MAN. U'.

But like I just wrote to Revolver, you can't compare teams thanks to one or two games against the same opponent, that goes against any logics !!

Bari and Parma, regarding what they spent and what they do in the championship, are the best teams, I mean the ones having the best results compared to their funds, players, etc.

The point is that Parma beat us, Roma didn't manage to do it.
Roma could win the title, but with that example and this logic, that means that a team like Parma can do better than a team like Roma against a big team (us) and with limited ressources. Yeah, ok, that's fine.

But what is the result at the end of the season and after the 38 games ? Parma, mid-table team, Roma, top 3 ...

Despite being able to do a better result in one game against a big team, the team with limited ressources won't qualify for any European competition (well, if they win tomorrow, Parma will maybe have a small chance to qualify for Europa League, very small) when the one with better ressources have a good chance to win the Scudetto.

Between Roma, Milan and Inter, I think we are the team with the "limited ressources", and we have managed to do almost as well as them during a whole season wit these "limited ressources", which is for me, a lot more impressive than doing as well as them against one or two teams.