Milan - Juventus (30/10 - 20:45)

Originally Posted by bijon

how many games do you need to see to tell the difference in quality between the two?

Much more than only from 2-3 games. 2-3 games is way too few to compare two or more players. Award for players are given after evaluating players' performance from one full season.

Player you like only played 6 games with MU and you compare him with Pato who scored many goals with Milan?

Originally Posted by bijon

the fact that he(Chicarito) has already gelled with his team in such a short time speaks volumes about his quality.

Galled with the team doesn't show the quality of a player. Like I said, too early to judge a player from only few games. That player is newbie for MU and need lots to prove.

One thing is also to be remembered that not every player has same characteristic.

The issue is actually that the whole team played not that well. Milan need improvement in all sectors except forward department. We relied our game only on Pirlo since we don't have any creative midfielder who have fresh legs. The defence is also very shaky since Thiago was out and we don't have substitute with similar quality or at least a quality CB. The biggest problem are the fullbacks. We don't have a single quality fullback.

Originally Posted by bijon

Yes, Pato is young but there are so many other youngsters his age even younger playing with more maturity.

Maturity is not only about galled with the team. The are a lot of things to be concerned to evaluate player's maturity. There could be young players who galled with their teams but doesn't mean they are more mature than Pato. No, you can't just measure the maturity from only 'galled with the team'.

Originally Posted by bijon

I want to see him score against disciplined organized teams with proper defenses, then we can talk, until then I will just and at people like you.

It is logic if a fan want to see him score against team like you described but wanting him to be sold after 2-3 bad-ok performances is unbelievable.

All big clubs want to have him in their team and you want to sell him because he played bad in 2-3 games?

Originally Posted by bijon

how many games do you need to see to tell the difference in quality between the two? the fact that he(Chicarito) has already gelled with his team in such a short time speaks volumes about his quality. Yes, Pato is young but there are so many other youngsters his age even younger playing with more maturity. I want to see him score against disciplined organized teams with proper defenses, then we can talk, until then I will just and at people like you.

You dismiss Pato so easily, yet choose to ignore what he's accomplished in his short career so far. He came to Milan with a lot of hype around him (moreso than any youngster before him) and not only did he match the hype, I'd argue he surpassed them. From then he effectively carried the team in Serie A as Kaka was getting injured more frequently and we were seriously struggling. Results and statistics prove that without him, we tend to struggle a lot more than when with him. He may be inconsistent (not a problem at his age), but lets not ignore the fact that since coming to Milan, he's become an indispensable member of the team.

What we need to do is identify why he's struggling of late. I believe there are a few reasons for this.

Firstly, he's playing a new system with a new coach and as of yet we're still developing attacking patterns. This makes it difficult for a forward to know where and when to move, especially when there's little to no rhythm to our game much of the time.

Secondly, his body's changed a lot in the past year. He's a lot taller than when he joined, and this affects his balance and centre of gravity. His bulk means his movements aren't necessarily as quick as before, or rather he's yet to adapt. A good example is comparing him to a teenager, particularly boys. When their body has a growth spurt when they hit puberty, many (actually most) boys struggle with their motor skills, making them clumsy because the body has grown more quickly than the mind, which has to adapt. It's difficult to play consistently when you're body has changed so much.

Finally, he's playing with Ibra. This has a massive impact on his game as a lot has changed. As of yet, him and Ibra haven't developed their understanding as they haven't played together much, and it will take time to improve. Also, in previous years, Pato was always our key target when attacking, as he was our star forward. Now with Ibra playing alongside him, our players are naturally aiming to pick out Ibra when we attack. Therefore, Pato needs to adapt to this, which again will take time.

No matter the age of the players we have, I think Allegri should start to rotate everywhere on the pitch and involve everyone in this long season ...

Pato or not Pato, Ibrahimovic or not Ibrahimovic, if they look tired, if they perform bad, we have other players in attack to replace them.

There are so many possible combinations that are possible up front that we should be able to score against any type of defence ...

Inzaghi - Robinho supported by Ronaldinho
Robinho and Pato behind Inzaghi or Ibrahimovic
Ibra - Pato supported by Ronaldinho
Ibra - Pato supported by Robinho
Ibra - Robinho supported by Ronaldinho
...

Originally Posted by GeoTav

No matter the age of the players we have, I think Allegri should start to rotate everywhere on the pitch and involve everyone in this long season ...

Pato or not Pato, Ibrahimovic or not Ibrahimovic, if they look tired, if they perform bad, we have other players in attack to replace them.

There are so many possible combinations that are possible up front that we should be able to score against any type of defence ...

Inzaghi - Robinho supported by Ronaldinho
Robinho and Pato behind Inzaghi or Ibrahimovic
Ibra - Pato supported by Ronaldinho
Ibra - Pato supported by Robinho
Ibra - Robinho supported by Ronaldinho
...

Ronaldinho was out so we don't have many options to rotate the strikers. I won't play Inzaghi from the first minute even he always has great spirit and motivation since age can't be denied.

If we have Robinho free on the bench, rotation for Ibra and Pato is very needed if one of them (or both) played bad.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

No matter the age of the players we have, I think Allegri should start to rotate everywhere on the pitch and involve everyone in this long season ...

Pato or not Pato, Ibrahimovic or not Ibrahimovic, if they look tired, if they perform bad, we have other players in attack to replace them.

There are so many possible combinations that are possible up front that we should be able to score against any type of defence ...

Inzaghi - Robinho supported by Ronaldinho
Robinho and Pato behind Inzaghi or Ibrahimovic
Ibra - Pato supported by Ronaldinho
Ibra - Pato supported by Robinho
Ibra - Robinho supported by Ronaldinho
...

Oh man, I know your point, but the examples are just un-do-able, each requires some matches of tries & errors, and I couldn't be happy if the brave heart Allegri would make my Milan sit near the relegation group.

Problem is: we need midfielder(s) with brain. Boateng's brain is bigger than Flamini but still can't compare to Rino or Ambro. Even if it is painful by watching, the old men are the most useful now.

We need player like Poli. I thought Boateng could be better than Rino, but in fact Rino regained half of his and is the best DM now. However, passing the ball to Pirlo is still his best attacking available task.

Originally Posted by Aficio

Oh man, I know your point, but the examples are just un-do-able, each requires some matches of tries & errors, and I couldn't be happy if the brave heart Allegri would make my Milan sit near the relegation group.

Problem is: we need midfielder(s) with brain. Boateng's brain is bigger than Flamini but still can't compare to Rino or Ambro. Even if it is painful by watching, the old men are the most useful now.

We need player like Poli. I thought Boateng could be better than Rino, but in fact Rino regained half of his and is the best DM now. However, passing the ball to Pirlo is still his best attacking available task.

Is Poli a creative player (or does he big brain according to your term )? I read once here telling him that he is more a DM.

I just feel like I have to post because some of the latest posts have been massively idiotic.

First things first - if you think that Pato is our problem, then excuse me sir - you are an idiot.
I even have a simple undeniable proof to that - name at least one Brazil / AC Milan game where the team did well and Pato did crappy? Hmmm... anyone?

Our problem is a sh**ty midfield and a sh**ty coach that doesn't realize how sh**ty our midfield is. And you know what? I am yet to see a striker who plays well with a sh**ty midfield...

Moving on to idiocy #2 - many people here assume that we can take a good player from another team and he will no doubt be world class for us. Hamsik? Seriously? looooooool.

I know you are high from watching every Brazil prospect playing amazing sambo football and scoring 40 yard screamers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those prospects turn out average at best in a top club.

Every year we have new prospects like Neymar and people start day dreaming about selling a settled star Pato, for the promise of a someone who played a couple of great games in Brazil league.

I rest my case.

Originally Posted by Siregar

Is Poli a creative player (or does he big brain according to your term )? I read once here telling him that he is more a DM.

Rino or Ambro are also DMs, but they both have great tactical sense. Poli was singled out by Allegri, so he must have something inside

I didn't say Hamsik or Pastore because that's too obivious.

We lack movement, but what kind of movement? Antonini's movement (aside from defense) is at least a level ahead of Abate's.

I keep thinking our main problem right now is the rythm of the way we play, the high number of useless passes (yes, we keep possession this way, but to do what ?) ...

We have the players to play a fast passing game, but we don't do it. Pato is incredible when he is launched running towards the goal, when he receives a pass by not moving, he is "useless". Ibrahimovic also often receives passes in his feet and not in his run, so when he controls the ball, he is stopped.

And I still can't wait to see the Flamini-Boateng midfield. IMO, we didn't lack creativity in the game against Juventus, but we lacked movement, and even if Flamini isn't the most creative player in the world, the fact is that the guy is always in move and as a consequence, gives solution to his partners.

So between a "not moving - creative player" and a "moving - not creative player", my choice will be quickly done.

Originally Posted by fLame

I know you are high from watching every Brazil prospect playing amazing sambo football and scoring 40 yard screamers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those prospects turn out average at best in a top club.

Every year we have new prospects like Neymar and people start day dreaming about selling a settled star Pato, for the promise of a someone who played a couple of great games in Brazil league.

I rest my case.

I was crucified here because I said something like this. But, it's really true. I remember 10 years ago, or so, Diego was labeled "new Pele" across the world, and look at him now, he struggled to get in Juventus' starting 11 recently. Robinho also never showed a half of hype that was surrounding him when he was in Brazil.

The thing is, our scouting team in Brazil did a great job in last 10 years, mostly Leonardo, so we brought 3 players that really became world-class, Kaka even became the best player in the world. So now we want every Brazilian prospect here. It's not that simple.

I think some members here are really harsh on Pato.

He's 20 years old and we want him to be great in every game.

It's RIDICULOUS to compare that Mexican for Manchester Utd with Pato.

Pato was scoring almost week in - week out in the toughest league of all in his first season when he was barely 18. He scored the winning goal away against Fiorentina, the top 4 team.

In his second season, he scored almost against every big team, namely Fiorentina, Roma, Juventus. Most of that goals he scored while playing a lone striker.

Nowdays, after 5 games out he scores twice in his first game. Those things made one player one of all-time greats. You can assume who's in question.

To conclude, IMHO Pato has all what it needs to be the best striker in the world in the future, and even more than that. His positioning, movement and finishing are astonishing for a 20-years old striker. And yet, I even didn't mention his pace and technical qualities. We should NOT sell him at ANY price.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Damn, we lost against Juventus + I was among a bunch of fans of Juventus to watch this game ... what a bad night (they opened their mouth a lot then) !!

There is something I hate about our team nowadays: the lack of rythm. We play really slowly, it's like if we're unable to accelerate the rythm of the game. Our opponents all manage to have chances with 2-3 passes, we need 5-6 passes to be in their area. It's really too slow. They need to play more simply, and as a consequence, more efficiently.

Yes as Bosniaco said a guy like Marek Hamsik or a player of the like could be the answer.

Actually, I did not see the game. I taped it, and I have not watched it yet. Probably because I'm scared. Milan for past 3-4 years has just been very slow. The biggest problem in my opinion is that they do not run off the ball. They are static. They are not technical enough. Ambrosini Gattuso Flamini and even Boateng are fighters, but not technical enough on the ball. If you're going to be a technical attacking team as Berlusconi wishes to be, then your forwards AND midfield must be able to play in that way.

I find there to be a general disconnect between the style of the MF and Attack.

I'm not going to bash Pato, but he's been pretty disappointing so far this year. I'm not sure why...

I have been the one guy here who's saying since summer that Antonini, Bonera, Oddo, NOT good enough. Abate should play at RB for the time being, Zambrotta should also play. Then, we need to buy Van der Wiel, Coentrao or players of the Quality.

Milan can simply not compete because they're just not talented enough, and the talented guys like Seedorf and Pirlo seem to be looking very old and unmotivated.

Lastly, if TS and Nesta are not playing side by side, it seems to be a mess. This is a problem too.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

I keep thinking our main problem right now is the rythm of the way we play, the high number of useless passes (yes, we keep possession this way, but to do what ?) ...

We have the players to play a fast passing game, but we don't do it. Pato is incredible when he is launched running towards the goal, when he receives a pass by not moving, he is "useless". Ibrahimovic also often receives passes in his feet and not in his run, so when he controls the ball, he is stopped.

And I still can't wait to see the Flamini-Boateng midfield. IMO, we didn't lack creativity in the game against Juventus, but we lacked movement, and even if Flamini isn't the most creative player in the world, the fact is that the guy is always in move and as a consequence, gives solution to his partners.

So between a "not moving - creative player" and a "moving - not creative player", my choice will be quickly done.

Well, IMO, slow passing is the strong point of Milan. Teams use slow passing to shift the focus of opponents, stretch the defense. In the beginning, all defense look undefeatable, but after being moved (though maybe a little) by the slow passing, a crack will arise. Milan is dangerous because of it can perform a fast break with super precise passes in split second, thanks to the appearance of many playmakers at the sametime: Pirlo, Seedorf, Rui Costa, Kaka, Dinho, Beckham, Ibra and the thirsty forwards: Sheva, Pippo, Pato will be the punishers.

Yeah, it was not the slow of like last year when our only hope for fast break, Pato was injuried. This year we have a more mature & stronger Pato, in addition of Robinho and Ibra. However, Ibra doesn't seem to get along with Milan's style, he often can't catch the idea of Pirlo, so there is another choice: let him does what he want. This his how we can't play as a team.

I also like watching some crazy moments of less creative more speed, but not too long, it looks like a normal EPL team.

Originally Posted by Elmago99

Lastly, if TS and Nesta are not playing side by side, it seems to be a mess. This is a problem too.

That's really a big problem for Milan. Last year we suffered so much because of Nesta's absence (started from against MU). We were under performing since that time (I do believe that our chance of getting Scudetto in that time was dropped so much because of Nesta. Nesta was our most important player in that time, not Ronaldinho). Now we also faced similar situation starting from Madrid game. Luckily the defense could hold the score when we played against Napoli (I am not saying we were lucky since we made a lot of great chances, unlike Napoli but we suffered a lot because of Thiago's absence).

Originally Posted by Revolver

Those things made one player one of all-time greats. You can assume who's in question.

A certain dutchman I presume

Originally Posted by Elmago99

I'm not going to bash Pato, but he's been pretty disappointing so far this year. I'm not sure why...

Besides the last few games, he's been excellent this season. Overall, it's been an inconsistent season so far, but it's still very early.

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

You dismiss Pato so easily, yet choose to ignore what he's accomplished in his short career so far. He came to Milan with a lot of hype around him (moreso than any youngster before him) and not only did he match the hype, I'd argue he surpassed them. From then he effectively carried the team in Serie A as Kaka was getting injured more frequently and we were seriously struggling. Results and statistics prove that without him, we tend to struggle a lot more than when with him. He may be inconsistent (not a problem at his age), but lets not ignore the fact that since coming to Milan, he's become an indispensable member of the team.

What we need to do is identify why he's struggling of late. I believe there are a few reasons for this.

Firstly, he's playing a new system with a new coach and as of yet we're still developing attacking patterns. This makes it difficult for a forward to know where and when to move, especially when there's little to no rhythm to our game much of the time.

Secondly, his body's changed a lot in the past year. He's a lot taller than when he joined, and this affects his balance and centre of gravity. His bulk means his movements aren't necessarily as quick as before, or rather he's yet to adapt. A good example is comparing him to a teenager, particularly boys. When their body has a growth spurt when they hit puberty, many (actually most) boys struggle with their motor skills, making them clumsy because the body has grown more quickly than the mind, which has to adapt. It's difficult to play consistently when you're body has changed so much.

Finally, he's playing with Ibra. This has a massive impact on his game as a lot has changed. As of yet, him and Ibra haven't developed their understanding as they haven't played together much, and it will take time to improve. Also, in previous years, Pato was always our key target when attacking, as he was our star forward. Now with Ibra playing alongside him, our players are naturally aiming to pick out Ibra when we attack. Therefore, Pato needs to adapt to this, which again will take time.

No, I'm not dissmissing him, I acknowledge his talent but imo, hes overhyped. Time will tell, but yeah, right now I can't seem him getting to the same level as Eto or Messi.