Winter Mercato 2011

Brasileiro, Milano, its good to see you two again.

Brasileiro, I don't think its the foreigner problem, as much as it is, the fact that teams are relying on foreigners and Milano pointed out, senior players as well. I guess looking at my post, I didn't make it clear enough, but I don't think its just foreigners, but, also, the fact that clubs will have far less patience with their youngsters.

I still think Italy is producing talent. And while Germany might have more foreigners than Italy, in the league, the fact is that it is not just Bayern that is producing German stars. Bayern has made the bulk of its team, Lahm, Muller, Contento, Schweinsteiger, while Stuttgart has brought out Khedira, Gomez, and Tasci. The German teams might have lots of foreigners, but their German products are still given the chance that Italian youth don't get in Italy.

Cassano ruined his own chances, I'll give you that, but I don't think Giovinco's situation is his fault. Juventus has found a way to take a great crop of talent and pretty much ruin a lot of them. Marchiso is the only one of that class of Juve youth that gets to play his natural position from time-to-time and his success at Juve is plain to see.

I think people look at Pirlo and Gattuso in a very romantic way. Gattuso came from a recently relegated team, Salernitana, while Pirlo was like Luca Cigarini, a great talent, who supposedly had wasted his opportunity. I think if Pirlo and Gattuso came to Milan now, we would be wondering why Milan management was wasting our money on these types of players.

I agree with so much of what you say Brasileiro, and I see your point on English players being valued too highly, but, the funny thing is, I think in Serie A, Italians players are actually less expensive than foreigners, at least the type of Brazilian players that Milan would go after.

Salvatore Bocchetti went to Rubin Kazan, why? Sure, Kazan spent a lot of money, but, this was a promising Italian defender, and I think the fact that Italy's young defenders are not playing at the top clubs means that what talent they have is reaching a limit because they are not being surrounded by the environment that will help them grow, get the experience, and learn the proper ways to play. Looking at Abate grow the last two years or Prince in the little time he's been here, shows me how the environment can make these type of players really shine.

I'm just saying that if 50% of Criscito was 6m, meaning he's valued at 12, I would rather spend 12 million on Criscito than 18 on Coentrao. I'm not opposed to foreigners, again, I'm a foreigner myself, but I want Milan to stay Italian, because that's the history of the club. Plus, it seems to me, that it would be worth spending 8 million on Luca Cigarini than whatever ridiculous price Honda would cost.

But then again, for a player like Ganso, I would be happy to spend 15 million on him. He is special, no matter what country he comes from, and that's my point.

As far as Italy's talent goes, the talent is clearly there. Italy has never cared about youth tournaments, and the ony tournament it does care about is the European U21, which it is the most successful team in. It has won it more than any other European team, and in 2009, went to the semi-finals. I'm not sure if the talent in Italy is gone, I think the difference is that it is much harder for an Italian player to actually get through and actually start playing at the top.

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Good points, but while I agree(in some extent) about Pirlo and Gattuso, it´s good to highlight they did make sort of a impact when they came here. Sure they were not world class yet, but they were not scared chicks, too. A player need to show at least a little bit of promise to a big Club stick wih them. Thats the price to play CL in a big Club. Look at Abate, even playing a new position(and with mixed presentations), he has adde value to our squad(imo). Pirlo had his chance at AMD at Inter but didn´t produce... He need to thank Carlo´s vision that changed his role.

The most important thing to consider is 10 years ago milan signed these players at this stage in there career.....

Neither were starters when they came but earned time and proved there worth...

but instead of keeping this policy they preferred signing players like Emerson, Zambrotta etc. While Zambrotta is a valuable squad player Milan and co. need to return to policy of bringing promising youth to squad instead of filling bench with pensioners on decline like jankulvski, oddo and so on.

You need some exerience on bench for sure, but surely your 11 bench players (or whateveR) shouldn't be filled with all players over 30 on decline (like was case 2 seasons ago for milan). And thats a big difference with italian clubs and Spanish ones......

Barca sell deco, henry, yaya to make room for iniesta, pedro, busquets. Milan loan Oddo to make room for Zambrotta, sell Brocchi to make room for Emerson....



Eitheryway... anyway you look at it. There are MANY problems with development in Italy. It's not just one thing....And it's CERTAINLY not foreign players....


Infact todays match v. Ajax is a microcasm. Throw away match.... perfect opportunity to give Merkel or Verdi an opportunity (two kids who are highly promising and showed in preseason.... but report is seedorf will start. WHY?)

Come on, Cigarini is now compared to Pirlo? What Cigarini has done in his young age?

Hyped over Italian young players is getting so biased lately. It is no secret big clubs only want players ready to play well, not players who still use the games as place to 'practice'. If Italian young players told lately in this thread are similar quality with Pirlo, not only big clubs from Italy, big clubs from outside Italy will come and get them.

For me it is simple, final achievement of young players is youth competition either in Europe or world level and Italy has been doing poor lately.

Someone here mentioned here about young German players. Those players thrashed England 4-0 in the European final. It is not a coincidence the players could play as starter for the respective clubs. Same goes young players from other country like Brasil, Argentina or Spain.

Talent is every where in Italy but the quality of them is nowhere near Italy had before. I can agree that Milan have to pay a bit more for players like Pirlo's quality but for Cigarini, Montolivo, etc.? It is better to use the money for a better player with cheaper price.

Originally Posted by Milano84

all I know is i heard a Tim Vickery interview on world football daily podcast saying he's a huge prospect.

Vickery, IMO is by far best english speaking pundit reporting in south america. This guy was reason I saw Alexis Sanchez at River, Pastore at Hurcan, Giuliano at Inter or Ganso at Santos. He's very intune with what's going on there...

Lamela gained hype for outperforming Riquelme in el superclaisco (18 year old performing in biggest derby with pressure is impressive)

River play estudiantes today. Braida has apparently extended his stay to watch him (and Mori). Match is at 9pm Italian time (same as Ajax match). I got it on record, i wanna see him play....

Lamela has been hyped for a while, but he's still only played like 13 first team matches. Goes in line with what Milan is trying to do... sign big talent prospects before hype gets out and fee's go thru the roof.

Thanks for the answer. I found that he was followed already by media since he was very young, 12-13 years probably. So, there should be anything special if such young age a player is being followed by media. But again, the problem is how the player maintain the developmental of his football ability since ability of such young player can be used to compete with much more older players.

The bold part is important but it is extremely with high risk. So, Lamela and Ganso plays in the same position? Both are left-footer players, right?

Originally Posted by Siregar

Thanks for the answer. I found that he was followed already by media since he was very young, 12-13 years probably. So, there should be anything special if such young age a player is being followed by media. But again, the problem is how the player maintain the developmental of his football ability since ability of such young player can be used to compete with much more older players.

The bold part is important but it is extremely with high risk. So, Lamela and Ganso plays in the same position? Both are left-footer players, right?

I though Ganso better... he's right footed but two footed. He's not beckham for ex. Think more like Pirlo, prefers his right, can use both.

Yeah when Lamela was 12 or 13, barca tried to pouch him with 100k nike money, but some pressure from argentina FA stopped it I guess.... after Messi. It was after they had lost Messi I believe.

Originally Posted by Siregar

Come on, Cigarini is now compared to Pirlo? What Cigarini has done in his young age?

Hyped over Italian young players is getting so biased lately. It is no secret big clubs only want players ready to play well, not players who still use the games as place to 'practice'. If Italian young players told lately in this thread are similar quality with Pirlo, not only big clubs from Italy, big clubs from outside Italy will come and get them.

For me it is simple, final achievement of young players is youth competition either in Europe or world level and Italy has been doing poor lately.

Someone here mentioned here about young German players. Those players thrashed England 4-0 in the European final. It is not a coincidence the players could play as starter for the respective clubs. Same goes young players from other country like Brasil, Argentina or Spain.

Talent is every where in Italy but the quality of them is nowhere near Italy had before. I can agree that Milan have to pay a bit more for players like Pirlo's quality but for Cigarini, Montolivo, etc.? It is better to use the money for a better player with cheaper price.

I beg to differ. The reason why those young German players could thrash England 4-0 was not simply because they had more talent. Rather, those talents, when they were still raw talents, had already been given their chances to play at the highest level much earlier than those in Italy.
Lets make a comparison. Players like Schweinsteiger, Poldolski, Lahm and Mario Gomez, for example, started playing for their Senior setups at the raw ages of 19, 19, 20 and 22 respectively. By the time they were 21, 21 and 22, Schweinsteiger, Poldolski and Lahm had already established themselves as starters in the Senior Germany setup playing in one of the largest tournaments in the world (WC 06).

The trend is still continuing with Ozil and Khedira and even the lesser knowns like Toni Kroos and Marko Marin. All of these players are under 24 years of age, and yet already have at least a dozen senior caps to their names. 12 games may not sound like a lot, but in terms of games played at senior level, specially during non-tournament years, that would probably amount to an entire qualifying campaign. Now if you compare that to the youth in italy, how many can actually boast to having those stats when they reach 25?

And this trend isn't even news to them. Klose may be 32 now, but he started playing for the Senior setup back in 2001, when he was only 23!

The deal is, you need to take time to develop talents, and whilst youth tournaments may be a good place to showcase your raw talents, you won't get them developed unless you are actually playing against the best in the world, not their un-developed counterparts. Germany has done a monumental job of bleeding their talents, so well in fact, the current crop of the German senior squad has even reached 30 yet!

The crux of the matter, in my opinion, is that Germany bleeds their youth properly, Italy does not. Rather they would see their youth waste away in unknown sides just so their senior players can extend their longevity, up till they can't walk anymore. Does this mean the Italian youth are not talented? No. It just means that they won't get the chance to play against players that will make them improve, and thus turn them into the true talents which they should have been able to be.

Originally Posted by Ryo

I beg to differ. The reason why those young German players could thrash England 4-0 was not simply because they had more talent. Rather, those talents, when they were still raw talents, had already been given their chances to play at the highest level much earlier than those in Italy.
Lets make a comparison. Players like Schweinsteiger, Poldolski, Lahm and Mario Gomez, for example, started playing for their Senior setups at the raw ages of 19, 19, 20 and 22 respectively. By the time they were 21, 21 and 22, Schweinsteiger, Poldolski and Lahm had already established themselves as starters in the Senior Germany setup playing in one of the largest tournaments in the world (WC 06).

The trend is still continuing with Ozil and Khedira and even the lesser knowns like Toni Kroos and Marko Marin. All of these players are under 24 years of age, and yet already have at least a dozen senior caps to their names. 12 games may not sound like a lot, but in terms of games played at senior level, specially during non-tournament years, that would probably amount to an entire qualifying campaign. Now if you compare that to the youth in italy, how many can actually boast to having those stats when they reach 25?

And this trend isn't even news to them. Klose may be 32 now, but he started playing for the Senior setup back in 2001, when he was only 23!

The deal is, you need to take time to develop talents, and whilst youth tournaments may be a good place to showcase your raw talents, you won't get them developed unless you are actually playing against the best in the world, not their un-developed counterparts. Germany has done a monumental job of bleeding their talents, so well in fact, the current crop of the German senior squad has even reached 30 yet!

Yes, I agree. That what I told in my previous post discussing that team like Bayern have the B team where they can use the team for their "graduated" players from youth academy.

The problem is that players like Cigarini and co. has been given chances by playing in small clubs in Italy but still no clubs got them. Many factors could be the reason but I do think that the quality of them is not in the level the big clubs want is an important factor.

Originally Posted by Milano84

I though Ganso better... he's right footed but two footed. He's not beckham for ex. Think more like Pirlo, prefers his right, can use both.

Yeah when Lamela was 12 or 13, barca tried to pouch him with 100k nike money, but some pressure from argentina FA stopped it I guess.... after Messi. It was after they had lost Messi I believe.

That's good that a player especially the one who dictates the game could play with both feet.

My concern is which player Milan actually want to buy. I don't see Milan could both (Ganso and Lamela except one of them can play optimally non only as player behind striker but also in the midfield.

Updates on European Coeffecients after today:

Total over last 5 years:
Germany 66.27
Italy 59.123
France 52.178

This year:
Germany 12.5
Italy 10.142
France 9.250


From all of the current 16 teams in the Champs league that qualified to the next round, Milan have the lowest points out of all with 15 points (and thus the worst record of 2 wins 2 draws and 2 defeats).

Originally Posted by Siregar

That's good that a player especially the one who dictates the game could play with both feet.

My concern is which player Milan actually want to buy. I don't see Milan could both (Ganso and Lamela except one of them can play optimally non only as player behind striker but also in the midfield.

if i have to choose between them, i would pick ganso as ronaldinho direct replacement and get Cassano on a free transfer. lamela is a good prospect and if you have followed the argie talents u will know that this guy is nothing compared to d'alessandro, saviola, ramangoli(sp?), Castroman and many many more and you can see where these guys ended up, not taking anything from those guys but its well known that argies are killers just until certain age and suddenly as if u switched them with totally different players. i trust in brasilian talents not because they fit us best but because they tend to do well with us but hey this guy can be an exception.

Originally Posted by hitmannq8

Updates on European Coeffecients after today:

Total over last 5 years:
Germany 66.27
Italy 59.123
France 52.178

This year:
Germany 12.5
Italy 10.142
France 9.250


From all of the current 16 teams in the Champs league that qualified to the next round, Milan have the lowest points out of all with 15 points (and thus the worst record of 2 wins 2 draws and 2 defeats).

hitman man why do you care this much? i really want serie A to be first in the ranking but do you really think italian F.A are trying to solve this problem ?
they are not and they deserve every single thing that happening to them. they really need to work on improving their league, their teams, stadiums even fans. its really so depressive to find out one good italian team performing good in european cups.

1 point out of 9 possible against weaker, knocked out and helpless teams, thats a disgrace, same goes for europa league

Originally Posted by Lebanese

if i have to choose between them, i would pick ganso as ronaldinho direct replacement and get Cassano on a free transfer. lamela is a good prospect and if you have followed the argie talents u will know that this guy is nothing compared to d'alessandro, saviola, ramangoli(sp?), Castroman and many many more and you can see where these guys ended up, not taking anything from those guys but its well known that argies are killers just until certain age and suddenly as if u switched them with totally different players. i trust in brasilian talents not because they fit us best but because they tend to do well with us but hey this guy can be an exception.

yeah, i can't disagree.

Originally Posted by Lebanese

hitman man why do you care this much? i really want serie A to be first in the ranking but do you really think italian F.A are trying to solve this problem ?
they are not and they deserve every single thing that happening to them. they really need to work on improving their league, their teams, stadiums even fans. its really so depressive to find out one good italian team performing good in european cups.

1 point out of 9 possible against weaker, knocked out and helpless teams, thats a disgrace, same goes for europa league

You are 100% right, I don't disagree.....

I am just keeping an update on how screwed we are and how deep of a hole we are falling into and still falling deeper.

But even if Milan goes down, I will still care and I am sure you will still too. I feel the same way towards all of Italy not only Milan though.

I used to not care but after much thought, a STRONG Italian Serie A is better for Milan, and not just getting a place in CL. It's important to build a strong league with good fans and nice stadiums to attract the best players in the world. The FIGC better get their act together...We can debate all day what that would mean but they need to make changes FAST..

I think it's so apparent that we need more than "just a Striker"....

I'd like to see if 1 Poster thinks we can win Champions League or build a Serie A dynasty with Bonera, Zambro, Abate, and Antonini? what about R80?

There are many issues here. If we get Ganso, not only would R80 not be needed, but no one talks about how Seedorf will also not be needed. He will be the replacement for Ganso, nothing more. I can't see him needed in the 3 man-midfield behind our ACM (Ganso, or someone else)....

I'd much prefer Pirlo-Ambro-Flamini-Boateng-Gattuso....before I'd want Seedorf...

We probably need another Striker, or promote a guy like Verdi if he's ready. In other words:
Strikers
Ibrahimovic
Pato
Robinho
?

ACM
Ganso
Seedorf

Midfield
Pirlo
Ambro
Boateng
Flamini
Gattuso
Merkel

Defense
Nesta
Silva
and the rest are ???????????'s

Lastly, a big NO to Cassano. He's a great player but he's more or less Robinho... why do we need an identical player to Robinho..who's a slightly better passer... He's not really an ACM.. Unless we want to build him as such, he's not the guy I want. I still also think Ibra will play best as SS...

I just read on goal.com that both Tiago and Flamini have sustained serious injuries and will face a long spell out of the pitch. Flamini is 3-4 weeks out, Tiago may be even longer. what a blow for our team.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/italy...s-out-as-milan