Winter Mercato 2011

So Crisito is 18Mil, while David Luiz is 25-30Mil plus players(at least according to goal.com). Can Milan just spend that 25Mil plus Oddo, Janku and Mr. 4-time CL winner to Benfica for David Luiz.
That is a good deal for all parties.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, but you have got to be kidding me with all the Santacroce love. The kid has talent, there is no doubt about it, but this is a guy who couldn't suit up for Napoli in the last couple of years. Whether his problems were injury related or other issues, he simply is not on the same level as Bonucci and Ranocchia at this point in time. Now, of course he can turn his career around but given our situation in the backline, we really don't have the time to wait for him to develop. Hell, even Bonera is probably better than him now and we all know how much we love it when Bonera suits up in place of Silva or Nesta, don't we? So, as much as I am intrigued by Santacroce, no thanks. He is not what we need right now.

Originally Posted by Aficio

2,5 years ago, in summer mercato for 2009-2010, we discussed a lot about which CB Milan should sign among: Mexes, Agger, Santacroce, Zapater,...

Now we know none of them are world class. Santacroce reminds me of Di Silvestri, very high expectation but couldn't make it. Maybe there is still something in him, but he needs time and can we wait for him? If the transfer fee is less than 5M, we should give him a chance.

Well, except very few exceptions (the most talented ones), the Italian defenders generally need more time to develop, because coaches in Italy tend to prefer an experienced 35yo defender instead of a young 20yo defender, even if the 20yo is talented and just needs games. That's the way it works in Italy.

De Silvestri or Balzaretti, or even Criscito (who was a CB when he started), are some good examples of young talented players who needed to wait their time ... They aren't WC players (yet, they still can be), but they are for sure good players and these 3 names would improve our defence !!

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Well, except very few exceptions (the most talented ones), the Italian defenders generally need more time to develop, because coaches in Italy tend to prefer an experienced 35yo defender instead of a young 20yo defender, even if the 20yo is talented and just needs games. That's the way it works in Italy.

De Silvestri or Balzaretti, or even Criscito (who was a CB when he started), are some good examples of young talented players who needed to wait their time ... They aren't WC players (yet, they still can be), but they are for sure good players and these 3 names would improve our defence !!

That's why we need a reserve team like in England or B team like in Germany and Spain. After Primavera young payers in Italy doesn't have later-stage competition for them except loaned out to smaller club. In their new clubs they mostly face though competition (will get only few chances) since they have almost no experience at all even they are talented.

I don't know when Italy will have such team to give young players coming from the youth more chances to get experience, something essential requirement to be chosen by the coach to play.

I think having a reserve team comes down to the cost of running it. After all, Serie A teams ain't power house financially, and it will just be too much of a burden for them.

Originally Posted by Aficio

2,5 years ago, in summer mercato for 2009-2010, we discussed a lot about which CB Milan should sign among: Mexes, Agger, Santacroce, Zapater,...

Now we know none of them are world class. Santacroce reminds me of Di Silvestri, very high expectation but couldn't make it. Maybe there is still something in him, but he needs time and can we wait for him? If the transfer fee is less than 5M, we should give him a chance.

Personally, I never thought Mexes was ever likely to be world class imo. He's good, but he never really stood out to me as someone great (I also think the same of Agger). Zapata is a talented player, but like Santacroce, injuries have really affected his growth. At 24, both could still look to make the next step and become great defenders, but at this point admittedly it's hard to see it happening. Santacroce for 5 million or less (seems to be the possible going rate) is a gamble worth taking, even if he turns out as nothing more than an alternative Bonera.

Originally Posted by slifersd

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, but you have got to be kidding me with all the Santacroce love. The kid has talent, there is no doubt about it, but this is a guy who couldn't suit up for Napoli in the last couple of years. Whether his problems were injury related or other issues, he simply is not on the same level as Bonucci and Ranocchia at this point in time. Now, of course he can turn his career around but given our situation in the backline, we really don't have the time to wait for him to develop. Hell, even Bonera is probably better than him now and we all know how much we love it when Bonera suits up in place of Silva or Nesta, don't we? So, as much as I am intrigued by Santacroce, no thanks. He is not what we need right now.

Bear in mind the two ex-Bari defenders only just made their name last season. Both are better than Santacroce right now, but Santacroce's potential cannot be ignored (something which was evident a couple of years ago). Bonera definitely isn't better right now though as he's simply awful.

Originally Posted by Gabriel489

I think having a reserve team comes down to the cost of running it. After all, Serie A teams ain't power house financially, and it will just be too much of a burden for them.

Come on, a championship of reserve teams is nothing more than the Primavera players who are too old to play with the Primavera and some senior players coming from injuries ...

Actually, there are two ways to do it:
- English way, a championship between the reserve teams of Premier League
- French way, a B senior team playing in a real championship (with restrictions: if the first team is in Serie A, the B team can't play in a professional championship for example, so even if the B team wins its championship, they will stay in their division)

IMO, the best way to do it is the French way because the reserve/B teams of the Ligue 1 teams play in a real competition against teams who try to become professional and some others trying not to be sent in a lower division ... that makes a huge difference because they play against motivated players and as a consequence, they have to play seriously.

The Ligue 1 teams use the reserve team to give experience to their young players and they put the players coming back from an injury there for one or two games as it's less dangerous (the level is lower, so less risk to get a new injury by playing at 100% too soon).

In France, it's done like that:
Ligue 1 -> Ligue 2 -> Nationale -> CFA (Amateur French Championship) -> CFA 2 ...

I don't think I'm wrong there, the L1, L2 and Nationale championships are professional, CFA is the best amateur division, teams fight to go in Nationale, and the reserve teams are in CFA.

So Gabriel, if the French teams can do it, the Italian teams can do it too ... and about money, for the Serie A/B teams, it's like having a new junior team.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Come on, a championship of reserve teams is nothing more than the Primavera players who are too old to play with the Primavera and some senior players coming from injuries ...

Actually, there are two ways to do it:
- English way, a championship between the reserve teams of Premier League
- French way, a B senior team playing in a real championship (with restrictions: if the first team is in Serie A, the B team can't play in a professional championship for example, so even if the B team wins its championship, they will stay in their division)

IMO, the best way to do it is the French way because the reserve/B teams of the Ligue 1 teams play in a real competition against teams who try to become professional and some others trying not to be sent in a lower division ... that makes a huge difference because they play against motivated players and as a consequence, they have to play seriously.

The Ligue 1 teams use the reserve team to give experience to their young players and they put the players coming back from an injury there for one or two games as it's less dangerous (the level is lower, so less risk to get a new injury by playing at 100% too soon).

In France, it's done like that:
Ligue 1 -> Ligue 2 -> Nationale -> CFA (Amateur French Championship) -> CFA 2 ...

I don't think I'm wrong there, the L1, L2 and Nationale championships are professional, CFA is the best amateur division, teams fight to go in Nationale, and the reserve teams are in CFA.

So Gabriel, if the French teams can do it, the Italian teams can do it too ... and about money, for the Serie A/B teams, it's like having a new junior team.

I just know that in France there is also such B team like in Germany and Spain. You said that if the first team is in Serie A, the B team can't play in a professional championship for example. Does Serie B type of league mean a not-professional championship? I meant, if Lyon B promotes to the league just below Ligue 1, can that B team promote? If I remember it correctly, in Spain a B team can play until league in Segunda Division (if the A team plays in La Liga). In Germany I heard that there is no chance a B team play in second division.

How about the age of the players? Any restriction for the B team in France (except the first team player who play only for 1-2 game after injury)?

I agree with you with reserve team. Reserve team should cost not so much money. It is so far below level of Serie A with respect of financial cost.

About which one is better, I also agree with you. B team will give the players real competition, not only from the game but also from the championship point of view as well (that they have to fight to get promoted or just to avoid relegation).

Originally Posted by Siregar

I just know that in France there is also such B team like in Germany and Spain. You said that if the first team is in Serie A, the B team can't play in a professional championship for example. Does Serie B type of league mean a not-professional championship? I meant, if Lyon B promotes to the league just below Ligue 1, can that B team promote? If I remember it correctly, in Spain a B team can play until league in Segunda Division (if the A team plays in La Liga). In Germany I heard that there is no chance a B team play in second division.

How about the age of the players? Any restriction for the B team in France (except the first team player who play only for 1-2 game after injury)?

I agree with you with reserve team. Reserve team should cost not so much money. It is so far below level of Serie A with respect of financial cost.

About which one is better, I also agree with you. B team will give the players real competition, not only from the game but also from the championship point of view as well (that they have to fight to get promoted or just to avoid relegation).

Ligue 1, Ligue 2 and Nationale are professional leagues in France. So the B teams of the Ligue 1 clubs can't play in one of these leagues, they are blocked in the best amateur division.

The best amateur division in France has something like 3 or 4 groups (to avoid a team from the North to have to play in the South and vice-versa, it would cost too much for the real amateur teams), and it often happens that a B team wins one of the groups. Logically, this team should play in Nationale the following year, but it doesn't happen, it's the first amateur team who can play in Nationale the following year.

Why not allowing these B teams to play in Nationale or Ligue 2 ? 2 simple reasons:
- clubs like Lyon and co have a lot of money, so they could easily build a second team having a good level enough to play in Level 2, and as a consequence, they would take one more place in the professional leagues, and what's the point of having Lyon, Marseille, Lille, Paris, Bordeaux in Ligue 1 and Lyon B, Marseille B, Lille B, Paris B and Bordeaux B in Ligue 2 (not allowed to go in Ligue 1 if they win the league) for example ? Ligue 2 would be less appealing as there would be less competition with teams not allowed to be promoted in Ligue 1 ...
- they are unallowed to be promoted in a professional league probably to avoid some costs to these clubs (once a club becomes professional, the players have to sign professional contracts, etc) ...

In Italy, Serie B is professional for sure, I think Serie C (if it still exists) is also professional ? Not sure, I don't know well the Italian system ...

About the age restriction, there is none, as these B teams are in a real championship, the rules are the same for all the teams of this championship, but for a Ligue 1 club, there is no point using 25+yo players as at this age, they are either good enough to play in first team or not, if they're not, they aren't kept. So the Ligue 1 clubs use their B team to give senior experience to their best young players. But if they wanted, they could make a second senior team, it would just be useless/pointless, but theorically, they could do it.

Back to the transfers: it is reported that Galliani and Preciozi will meet on Monday to discuss about Criscito ... Criscito has the same agent as Antonini. The problem with Criscito coming is that Antonini could ask to leave to Juventus who would want him. Anyway, he should stay at least until the end of this season.

Thank you Leo for the information. I disagree only in one part about the first reason. I understand your point but I still doubt that a rich team would build strong team with experienced players for their second or B team. Just like your reason in about age restriction. Pointless to build strong (consists of senior players) B team since it will cost a lot of money and what can the A team from it except spending much money?

In addition there could B restriction about age or about number of players over certain age (number of senior players who can play there) in Spanish League? Anyone knows about their system regarding B team? This year only Villareal and Barca have B team in Segunda Division. If I remember it correctly Barca B team was in very low league some years ago.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Back to the transfers: it is reported that Galliani and Preciozi will meet on Monday to discuss about Criscito ... Criscito has the same agent as Antonini. The problem with Criscito coming is that Antonini could ask to leave to Juventus who would want him. Anyway, he should stay at least until the end of this season.

Wow that could complicate things....

Originally Posted by Gabriel489

I think injury played a big part in Santacroce development. Another factor is coaching, as Napoli did went through a few coaches with different formations over the past few years.

To me, I still rate Santacroce over Bonnucci and Racchionia.

I share with you the two reasons. 21-24 is the last period for some physical improvements, he even lost it with injuries, and the form would affect his mental abilities badly.

I still hope we'll get him cheap and your assessment is true, but for now I can't help doubting him. 2,5 years of youth is a lot of important time.

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Well, except very few exceptions (the most talented ones), the Italian defenders generally need more time to develop, because coaches in Italy tend to prefer an experienced 35yo defender instead of a young 20yo defender, even if the 20yo is talented and just needs games. That's the way it works in Italy.

De Silvestri or Balzaretti, or even Criscito (who was a CB when he started), are some good examples of young talented players who needed to wait their time ... They aren't WC players (yet, they still can be), but they are for sure good players and these 3 names would improve our defence !!

But they could get the chance in smaller clubs, on loan or co-owned.

I think Milan are very careful about the commitment for the team, so they'd rather use home-grow like Antonini or Abate than spend on Di Silvestri (from a rival and not professional) or Balzaretti (Palermo's president hates us ). Criscito is OK, but he is expensive.

Of course super talent like Ibra, Binho & Cassano are always exceptional, but they are the attackers. Using bad mental players for defense is suicide, IMO

Originally Posted by ACMILAN1983

Personally, I never thought Mexes was ever likely to be world class imo. He's good, but he never really stood out to me as someone great (I also think the same of Agger). Zapata is a talented player, but like Santacroce, injuries have really affected his growth. At 24, both could still look to make the next step and become great defenders, but at this point admittedly it's hard to see it happening. Santacroce for 5 million or less (seems to be the possible going rate) is a gamble worth taking, even if he turns out as nothing more than an alternative Bonera.

Agree with every word

Two and a half years ago, the legendary Cap retired and Nesta was injured, so we lowered the requirements

Originally Posted by Aficio

But they could get the chance in smaller clubs, on loan or co-owned.

Many of them got no or few chances even the talented ones. I think, it is really hard for a young player without experience to compete with much older players (experienced players) even in smaller club in Serie B and C since experience is just so essential for many coaches.

Can anyone brief me on why Palermo President Zamparini hates us?