Tactics

The Christmas Tree, 42Fantasia, Leo's Trident... There's been quite a few formations that Milan has used to fill in the gap left by Kaka. Now that we have some really powerful pieces it's time to solve the puzzle.

The weakness of our 433 against other 433's is very apparent. Since our wingers never really track back, the opposition will use their full backs to double up on our full backs (see Cesena's first goal). This is a critical weakness, since our midfield can't cover all the time. This is usually only a problem with counterattacks when the midfield is high up in the field, and won't happen regularly against the big sides. It's a major problem against small '10 men behind the ball' teams. 433 is a big risk against them.

Things get much easier with the 433 if we score first. That's what happened with Lecce. If you remember that game, we actually were under a lot of pressure before we scored. It looked a little tough, but after Pato got the goal, things went a lot better. Same with Auxerre. Had we scored early against Cesena, we would have won easily. The reason is that by scoring, we force the opposition to attack and their fullbacks to venture forward with the ball (and that leaves Pato/Ronaldinho with space).

But we can't always risk everything on who manages to score first.

So what are our options?

Originally Posted by brk

The Christmas Tree, 42Fantasia, Leo's Trident... There's been quite a few formations that Milan has used to fill in the gap left by Kaka. Now that we have some really powerful pieces it's time to solve the puzzle.

The weakness of our 433 against other 433's is very apparent. Since our wingers never really track back, the opposition will use their full backs to double up on our full backs (see Cesena's first goal). This is a critical weakness, since our midfield can't cover all the time. This is usually only a problem with counterattacks when the midfield is high up in the field, and won't happen regularly against the big sides. It's a major problem against small '10 men behind the ball' teams. 433 is a big risk against them.

Things get much easier with the 433 if we score first. That's what happened with Lecce. If you remember that game, we actually were under a lot of pressure before we scored. It looked a little tough, but after Pato got the goal, things went a lot better. Same with Auxerre. Had we scored early against Cesena, we would have won easily. The reason is that by scoring, we force the opposition to attack and their fullbacks to venture forward with the ball (and that leaves Pato/Ronaldinho with space).

But we can't always risk everything on who manages to score first.

So what are our options?

There's something weird in what you said.
While you say that with our 4-3-3, we struggle against small teams, last year, we mainly struggled against big teams and this formation helped us to break the small teams ...

This season, we have only played against small teams, only 3 games. Let's wait for some more games before stating things I think.

My opinion is that no matter the formation, with the players we have, we can beat any team, it all depends on the will of these players to win this or that game ...

The Boateng-Pirlo(Seedorf)-Flamini trio in midfield could be a key for us, because with Flamini and Boateng, two players running a lot for 90 minutes, it could be a way to motivate the other players to run more too ...

Just follow the formation of Germany NT of WC 2010 & ACM will become irresistible

German GK
Abbiatti

Lahm ... Fredrich ... Metazakher ... Jensen
Silva ... Bonera ... Nesta ... Antonini

Schweinsteiger ... Kadheira
Boateng ... Flamini

Muller ... Ozil ... Poldoski
Pato ... Ronaldinho ... Robinho

Klose
Inzaghi/Ibrahimovic

..............................................

Its as simple as that

Originally Posted by mzk57

Just follow the formation of Germany NT of WC 2010 & ACM will become irresistible

German GK
Abbiatti

Lahm ... Fredrich ... Metazakher ... Jensen
Silva ... Bonera ... Nesta ... Antonini

Schweinsteiger ... Kadheira
Boateng ... Flamini

Muller ... Ozil ... Poldoski
Pato ... Ronaldinho ... Robinho

Klose
Inzaghi/Ibrahimovic

..............................................

Its as simple as that

I'm surprised that this formation actually made sense for me. The real problem is in the fullback IMO. I'm against putting T.Silva in right back, it's a suicide leaving the centre position to the likes of Bonera.

I've been thinking about the 4231 a lot too. I don't want to break the Thiago Silva/Nesta partnership, though.

But I see it more like this:

--------------Pato
Ronaldinho-------Robinho
------------Ibra

-----KPB---------Flamini

Antonini-------------Zambro
-------TS----Nesta


Flamini won't go past the halfway line, but the 3 (Ronaldinho, Robinho and Ibra) basically have free roles. They'll rotate all game and drift into spaces behind the midfield and try to unleash Pato. I don't want to see Pato in a support role anymore. His passes are terrible and he wastes so many moves trying to go past 3 players on his own. Just let him play as our central attacker and have the three more creative players support him.

This can't work with Pirlo, obviously.

It's interesting.. we seem to have a similar formation to Barcelona.....

----------------Villa------------------
Pedro---------------------------Messi
-------Iniesta-------Xavi-------------
--------------Sergio-------------------
Maxwell-------------------Dani Alves
----------Pique----Puyol-------------


--------------Ibrahimovic------------
Ronaldinho---------------------Pato
-------Seedorf---------KPB----------
------------------Pirlo----------------
Antonini--------------------Zambrotta
-------------T. Silva--Nesta-----------

This formation doesn't work for us for a few reasons...First, Pato does not like to play in Messi's position..I think he's rather play on the last man, and beat him.. Messi like to get the ball wide, face goal, and take on defenders....different players...

Secondly, Milan's midfield is too slow, especially on the ball. Barcelona is Barcelona and I understand that, they play 1 touch, and they move in and out of space very well.

Pato, is injured again (Surprise Surprise) so I think we should adopt this formation next few weeks in Serie A:

---------------------Ibrahimovic----------------------
---------Ronaldinho-------------Robinho------------
------Seedorf (KPB)--Pirlo (Seedorf)--KPB (Flamini)
Antonini--------T. Silva-----Nesta--------Zambrotta


The midfield needs some experimentation but the absolute thing we should NOT do anymore is put Ambrosini and Gattuso together. Ambro is out for 3 weeks so I want to see KPB and Flamini playing a lot...

Against lesser teams I want this formation absent of Pirlo... I really like it...

-------------------Ibrahimovic-------------
Ronaldinho--------Robinho--------------Pato
---------KPB/Ambro---------Flamini-----------
Antonini--------T. Silva--Nesta-------Zambrotta
-------------------Amelia/Abbiati-----------------

It wouldn't bad to use Seedorf as Regista, or rest them both altogether and experiment. Also, RB is a BIG issue, we lack depth there and I don't think Abate in a big CL game is the answer for that position..for now Zambrotta should be used for all big games..as his experience can at least be trusted (to an extent)

Our wingers not tracking back is a problem, yes. However....the even bigger problem is that they don't regularly put pressure on the opposing back-line/MF. If when we lose the ball....we pressure higher up the field and force the ball back the the opponents will either lose possession closer to their goal or will be forced to clear the ball straight to our CBs.....and we restart. But the pressure must be applied together as a team, and this is where the problem comes as Ronaldinho and Pato just don't do that. We retrieve back when we lose the ball and we let the opponents slowly move the ball up the field. At this point the 'not-tracking' back of our wingers becomes a problem. But like I said, why even get to that point??? Just pressure higher up the field (as a team) and then the wingers won't even have to track back because the opposition won't have time and space to construct attacks. Ibrahimovic has done it more then a few times (it seems like he learned something at Barca), but while is is applying pressure to the ball, Pato and Ronaldinho seem to be just watching most times.

Formations can sometimes only be numbers....it's up to the players to create the balance. A 4-4-2 can be unbalanced if the players don't do their job....and yet a 4-2-4 can be hugely balanced if the players do what they are supposed to. The formation gives the platform and the shape....the way you want to attack the team and defend. It gives the backbone and something to fall on. But the players in ANY formation must be the ones that create the balance.
That is the reason why we see the same formations used by many teams, yet some are greatly balanced and work great and others aren't. It's the players, the way they are asked to play and if they actually do what they are asked.

Barca's 4-3-3 seems to be balanced. Inter's 4-3-3 seemed to be balanced(under Mourinho, can't say about Benitez's just yet). Yet both play in a very different way and balance the formation in a different way. Inter uses their wide players to work back and defend. Barca on the other hand doesn't do that much, but makes their wide players run a lot in the opposing half and pressure the sh!t out of the ball (the way they keep possession also obviously helps) Again, I'm using these two examples because they have a similar set up like ours, yet they balance themselves in two very different ways.

So, since our two wide players don't want to track back and defend, then we have to make them run in the opposing half and pressure the ball over there. They must do one of the two, otherwise we're doomed for another failure of a season. In other words, we must change our approach. We have to stop defending with our midfield retrieving at 40meters from goal every time that we lose the ball. We must stay higher up the field and try to win the ball over there. Again, I don't think it's so much the 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 5-3-2,3-5-2...etc, etc. But it's the way our players create (or not) the balance within our set-up. Which by the way I think is fine and it fits the players we have. You guys can change the formations around all you want, but if you think that the formation alone will create the balance then you might be in for a surprise.

Of course, there are flaws in the attacking as well, but I already wrote something on that in the Auxerre match thread.(post# 127)

Originally Posted by nefremo

Our wingers not tracking back is a problem, yes. However....the even bigger problem is that they don't regularly put pressure on the opposing back-line/MF. If when we lose the ball....we pressure higher up the field and force the ball back the the opponents will either lose possession closer to their goal or will be forced to clear the ball straight to our CBs.....and we restart. But the pressure must be applied together as a team, and this is where the problem comes as Ronaldinho and Pato just don't do that. We retrieve back when we lose the ball and we let the opponents slowly move the ball up the field. At this point the 'not-tracking' back of our wingers becomes a problem. But like I said, why even get to that point??? Just pressure higher up the field (as a team) and then the wingers won't even have to track back because the opposition won't have time and space to construct attacks. Ibrahimovic has done it more then a few times (it seems like he learned something at Barca), but while is is applying pressure to the ball, Pato and Ronaldinho seem to be just watching most times.

Formations can sometimes only be numbers....it's up to the players to create the balance. A 4-4-2 can be unbalanced if the players don't do their job....and yet a 4-2-4 can be hugely balanced if the players do what they are supposed to. The formation gives the platform and the shape....the way you want to attack the team and defend. It gives the backbone and something to fall on. But the players in ANY formation must be the ones that create the balance.
That is the reason why we see the same formations used by many teams, yet some are greatly balanced and work great and others aren't. It's the players, the way they are asked to play and if they actually do what they are asked.

Barca's 4-3-3 seems to be balanced. Inter's 4-3-3 seemed to be balanced(under Mourinho, can't say about Benitez's just yet). Yet both play in a very different way and balance the formation in a different way. Inter uses their wide players to work back and defend. Barca on the other hand doesn't do that much, but makes their wide players run a lot in the opposing half and pressure the sh!t out of the ball (the way they keep possession also obviously helps) Again, I'm using these two examples because they have a similar set up like ours, yet they balance themselves in two very different ways.

So, since our two wide players don't want to track back and defend, then we have to make them run in the opposing half and pressure the ball over there. They must do one of the two, otherwise we're doomed for another failure of a season. In other words, we must change our approach. We have to stop defending with our midfield retrieving at 40meters from goal every time that we lose the ball. We must stay higher up the field and try to win the ball over there. Again, I don't think it's so much the 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 5-3-2,3-5-2...etc, etc. But it's the way our players create (or not) the balance within our set-up. Which by the way I think is fine and it fits the players we have. You guys can change the formations around all you want, but if you think that the formation alone will create the balance then you might be in for a surprise.

Of course, there are flaws in the attacking as well, but I already wrote something on that in the Auxerre match thread.(post# 127)

Excellent post.. the Brazilians seem to be a bit lazy on the defending... they will not track back..so they MUST MUST be aggressive to win the ball back in the opposing teams half.... end of story..

Nefremo pretty much covered everything I was thinking. Great post.

Originally Posted by ZvonimirBoban

I'm surprised that this formation actually made sense for me. The real problem is in the fullback IMO. I'm against putting T.Silva in right back, it's a suicide leaving the centre position to the likes of Bonera.

If you pay a little more attention to my posts, you would get the hidden, yet golden messages inside each of them & so far there are 1,700+ of them are available of MM. The time is not far away, when you will consider me as your 'The Godfather', but for the time being, let me be The Dark Knight

Oh, just STFU.

Originally Posted by mzk57

If you pay a little more attention to my posts, you would get the hidden, yet golden messages inside each of them & so far there are 1,700+ of them are available of MM. The time is not far away, when you will consider me as your 'The Godfather', but for the time being, let me be The Dark Knight

What's with the attitude? You should try to coach a Team then.. T. Silva will never be used as RB as he's being molded into Nesta's position... It's pretty simple...

Bonera should not play anymore.. He should be sold..

are you guys still reading that guys post?
I've stopped doin this a long time ago, they just dont make sense and the guy only wants to get angry reactions.

Originally Posted by Elmago99

What's with the attitude? You should try to coach a Team then.. T. Silva will never be used as RB as he's being molded into Nesta's position... It's pretty simple...

Bonera should not play anymore.. He should be sold..

The thing is that if Bonera shouldn't play, then what other choices ACM has? Onyewu, Zambrotta, Yepes or this new guy Papa. To be honest, I think Bonera is better than all of these. Secondly the reason I would like to see Silva as RB or LB is because he has all the attributes of some one like Dani Alves or Maicon. If he is shifted to the fullback position, one big problem of lacking quality fullbacks would be solved, because Silva can be a better fullback than any other ACM defender rite now. Then the likes of Bonera, Onyewu, Papa & Yepes can partner Nesta in the middle & when Nesta is playing, the other defender also looks like world class, even if he is not. I would like to give the example of Kaladze of 2005-06 here, remember how good he was back then?

Players have changed positions before and its not a new things. Zambrotta became a defender from a winger. Thuram became a CB from a RB. J.Zanetti has become a midfielder or LB from being the best RB in the world. All big teams have match winning fullbacks, plus Silva can be our new Maldini. Well not exactly like him (no one ever will), but a genuine solid fullback.

After doing all this, then the small matter or getting Mexes from Roma in the winter transfer window would be done hopefully. So see I have got a strong point here

BUT

If some how ACM owners again decide to spend some big money & get the signature of some one like Lahm, Zirkov, Cissoko or Dani Alves then Silva should continue as CB

Originally Posted by Filipéz 182

are you guys still reading that guys post?

We are even here, because I don't read yours

I've stopped doin this a long time ago, they just dont make sense and the guy only wants to get angry reactions.

That's only your hypothesis.