Juventus-AC.Milan 14/12/2008

^^ and i hope all talk of him not fitting into the system stops after plays brilliantly against Juve.. hoping against hope.

Let me add my two cents on this Pirlo issue. His defensive qualities are abysmal (an important quality if you're going to play at CM) so when he loses the ball in midfield he seldom wins it back. Tackling...non existant.

Attacking is where he shines but he almost needs all the stars to align for him to have a major impact on the game. For Milan he's extremely static and just sprays the ball around the pitch. For this to actually help us, like he said he would need quick attacking fullbacks, moving strikers, moving midfielders, a hotdog on sunday, a movie the night before, and a host of other things which Milan do NOT have at the moment. Why should we persist in playing him if the conditions to play him are not optimal ? Then to allow him to play his game we have to stick TWO DM's to protect him because of his defensive shortcomings.

My solution? Bench both Pirlo and Seedorf both of whom have similar slow games which really aren't that effective at the moment. Play 4-2-2-2 as follows:

GK; FB, CD, CD, FB; DM, DM; Dinho, Kaka; Pato, X

It's not that Pirlo and Seedorf are bad players per say...it's just that we don't have the players to properly utilize their qualities. Besides...Dinho is already a slow player. Add Pirlo and Seedorf and you have a static attack that couldn't break down a Serie C defense. I kept Dinho because although he's still unfit, he's the most likely to produce a moment of brilliance via a through ball or long range shot. Kaka and Dinho will have to learn to co-exist...if they can't then blame Berlu/Galliani for bringing Dinho in the first place

Originally Posted by Mystik

Let me add my two cents on this Pirlo issue. His defensive qualities are abysmal (an important quality if you're going to play at CM) so when he loses the ball in midfield he seldom wins it back. Tackling...non existant.

Attacking is where he shines but he almost needs all the stars to align for him to have a major impact on the game. For Milan he's extremely static and just sprays the ball around the pitch. For this to actually help us, like he said he would need quick attacking fullbacks, moving strikers, moving midfielders, a hotdog on sunday, a movie the night before, and a host of other things which Milan do NOT have at the moment. Why should we persist in playing him if the conditions to play him are not optimal ? Then to allow him to play his game we have to stick TWO DM's to protect him because of his defensive shortcomings.

My solution? Bench both Pirlo and Seedorf both of whom have similar slow games which really aren't that effective at the moment. Play 4-2-2-2 as follows:

GK; FB, CD, CD, FB; DM, DM; Dinho, Kaka; Pato, X

It's not that Pirlo and Seedorf are bad players per say...it's just that we don't have the players to properly utilize their qualities. Besides...Dinho is already a slow player. Add Pirlo and Seedorf and you have a static attack that couldn't break down a Serie C defense. I kept Dinho because although he's still unfit, he's the most likely to produce a moment of brilliance via a through ball or long range shot. Kaka and Dinho will have to learn to co-exist...if they can't then blame Berlu/Galliani for bringing Dinho in the first place

Must say I agree perfectly with Mystik...
Pirlo and seedorf out, 4222 in.
Simple as that.

The only problem is now that gattuso is injured, we must play ambro and flamini and it's much weaker than Rino and flamini...I won't get started on emerson...
Maybe even cardaccio gets his chance, right Ace?

Originally Posted by El Fre

Must say I agree perfectly with Mystik...
Pirlo and seedorf out, 4222 in.
Simple as that.

Well, 4-3-2-1 is called the christmas tree formation. What do you think we should call this? A blunt sword or a baseball bat formation

What Mystik and Al Fre suggested about Milan playing with 4-4-2 and Kaka' and Dinho playing wide of 2 DM'+s and 2 more forwards are n the team is impossible. I have to say im dissapointed by those visions of football.

Kaka' and Ropanldinho are not appropriate players to play in taht sistem and to add another two strikers to that. Then cannot cover the field well enough and eventually our midfield would consist of 2 players.

Ronaldinho is 100% unable to play any part of defensive phase, while to play Kaka' out wide on thr right is a sin! Plus twho strikers...impossible.

Juve with Nedved+Camoranesi are a different story, completely different.

That is the reason why Ranieri doesnt want Diego in Juve as he knows he will not chance the 4-4-2 sistem and Diego cannot play on the wing. That is also why Seba Giovinco has tactical problems in Juve. And that is why they didnt play like that when they had Zizou.

Dinho and Kaka' are both attacking midfielders wiothout ability to play strict zonal marking for long periods of time in the game. Like Boban, Rui Costa, Rivaldo etc.

Today Moggi said the same thing about Kaka'-Dinho situation as I've said few daays back - Dinho cannot follow Kaka's movements, its not a tactical problem oc X-mas tree, its the problem of Dinho's slow tempo and the unability to change sides and play as fast as Kaka'. A player like Ribery would be a digfferent story etc.

Our hope is to get Ronaldinho fit or MUCH fitter.

Originally Posted by kastriot

Pirlo will start, Carlo has always had a soft spot for Seedorf, but even softer for Pirlo... I dont recall a single moment when Pirlo was at least 60% ready and didnt play. Thats Carlo`s system, it all revolves around Pirlo, or to be more precise everything starts with him...he dictates our tempo of play.

In last game that Pirlo played, individually he was good, as unity they failed so its unfair to Blame Pirlo just because he was new to the team.

Lets say we have a 15 games unbeaten record with Favalli in defense, And after a while Nesta comes back in defense, and we loose....Which one will even consider droping Nesta for favalli......i hope I made my point clear.

no the point is not clear, Im sorry. Pirlo individually was afwull vs Torino and Palermo. If you look at Pirlo passing you would say: " wqell he was ok ". But if you look how much of the game Pirlo took from Flamini and Rino, how he nevber marked his man, how he let at least 7-8 shots from 20 in that 2 game,s then you'll realise Pirlo played completely unfit and his and coaches behaviour was unprofessional. He was completely unable to protect back line or to go and more more forward ( except last 15 min of Palermo game...), and in cases when he couldnt run forward as he was unfit to run over his man, he played numerous long balls from which oney one was good - Pato penalty.

And we didnt had Favalli in that 15 games in starting lineup, mostly he didnt play. He played few times. And the good defensive phase was to Rino and FLamini who are able to cover anourous ammount of space, and Seedorf playing deeper and being able to push more forward then Pirlo making us actually play 4-2-3-1.

This is a match that I am not looking fwd to, as a win looks very unlikely, based on several factors...before I go into those, lets look at the importance of the match for the scudetto race.

This is a pivotal game, and our season hinges on the result:

a) A draw means we "gift" Inter an 8 point lead, which I doubt we could claw back...
b) A Juve win basically eliminates us from the title race...early days I know, but on Inter and Juve´s form, I dont see them dropping enough points, and importantly, us winning enough games to catch them, even if they do drop some here and there.
c) A win for us launches us firmly back into the race...

But the question remains...can we win? Our best player all season, Rino, not only misses this match through suspension, but also potentially misses the entire season through injury (and although he has made "miraculous" recoveries in the past...an early return from this one would be truly miraculous)

This was always for me, a trasitional season, one in which we could slowly integrate the new players, while ensuring that we have UCL football for next term. That said, the UEFA Cup is obviously not our main focus, and elimination from the Italian Cup (which I consider a blessing in disguise) means we really should be challenging for the title, which based on our start to the season, and subsequent results, have us tied in 2nd place on points, but with a worryingly high number of goals conceded.

Injuries to key players: Pirlo, Rino, Seedorf, Pato, Max, Nesta...and the list goes on and on, have forced us to lose cohesion, and importantly, gain any level of dominance over our opponents, which also takes into consideration our poor finishing, and apparent inability to kill off matches.

Considering all these things, how can we hope for a win against Juve? Well, because we are Milan, and we always go out to attack, regardless of the opposition, or the competition.

The problem is that we tend to be unbalanced in the defensive component of the game, and we concede goals, even with a better performing keeper than we had last season.

I personally dont see how we can win this, unless Ranieri and Juve get things completely wrong.

It just shows how poor our transfer market is, that we are "banking" on an out of form, Chelski reject in $heva, to give us some goals...against Juve? Cmon! Be serious. I dont think he can score past a cohesive Juve defense, even with Chiellini out.

Unfortunately, I predict a loss for us, almost on the scale of what Madrid will pick up in their clash with Barca in the Nou Camp this weekend...and although derbies tend to be unpredictable, the form of Milan going into the Juve game is only marginally better than Madrid´s going into the "Super Classico".

Maybe this will open Berlu´s eyes to the investments he needs to make in Jan, or at the very latest, the summer mercato: CD, CDM, 20-goal-a-season striker....and of course, they must be world class...oh, and bring back Gorky as well.

FORZA MIIIIIIIILAN!! Hoping for a win, but not betting on it!

Originally Posted by mrki

no the point is not clear, Im sorry. Pirlo individually was afwull vs Torino and Palermo. If you look at Pirlo passing you would say: " wqell he was ok ". But if you look how much of the game Pirlo took from Flamini and Rino, how he nevber marked his man, how he let at least 7-8 shots from 20 in that 2 game,s then you'll realise Pirlo played completely unfit and his and coaches behaviour was unprofessional. He was completely unable to protect back line or to go and more more forward ( except last 15 min of Palermo game...), and in cases when he couldnt run forward as he was unfit to run over his man, he played numerous long balls from which oney one was good - Pato penalty.

And we didnt had Favalli in that 15 games in starting lineup, mostly he didnt play. He played few times. And the good defensive phase was to Rino and FLamini who are able to cover anourous ammount of space, and Seedorf playing deeper and being able to push more forward then Pirlo making us actually play 4-2-3-1.

You have successfully completely missed my point!!.. regardless i wont bother with much more writing, since we hardly agree on the Basis, Pirlo was way better that Seedorf in both those games IMO

Originally Posted by Warro Bantan

a) A draw means we "gift" Inter an 8 point lead, which I doubt we could claw back...
b) A Juve win basically eliminates us from the title race...early days I know, but on Inter and Juve´s form, I dont see them dropping enough points, and importantly, us winning enough games to catch them, even if they do drop some here and there.

Inter played like crap in the second half of last season and Juve are very unpredictable. There is no reason for us to assume a draw or a loss will throw us out of a title race. It's very difficult but surely we can't rule it out off handedly.

Coming back to the game ahead, the reason why we are most likely going to be the worse of the two is that our midfield is in pathetic shape and form right now. Only Flamini is a player that can say he is in both of the aforementioned conditions to start in this match. Pirlo is uncertain since he's not in either form or shape. Seedorf is getting too much of a hindrance for Milan for the last few games. Gattuso is out, Ambrosini is not impressive and don't even mention Emerson.

On the other hand, Juve have a Nedved, Mauro, Sissoko and Marchisio. The former two are unpredictable players and the latter two are in excellent form at the moment.

If games are truly won in midfield then we can kiss this match goodbye but having players like Pato, Kaka and R80, we cant say that.

Juve are a team whose midfield plays as a unit (atleast defensively) so it'll be very difficult for Kaka, R80 and Pato to break them with their skills as dribblers. Plus Juve usually plays well against Milan and Inter (they were the better side last season against both of us).

4-2-2-2 though a seemingly good formation is in my opinion bad since it doesn't have a midfield and relies on individual brilliance (not a good strategy). Kaka and Ronaldinho can't/won't defend well and we'll be completely out-muscled in midfield.

Juve plays through their wings better and 4-2-2-2 doesn't get us as much width as the Christmas tree does.

Even if i drop my obvious bias in favour of Pirlo, i still think we should play him. He is as good as anyone in this Milan team and has enough class to make a difference.

The Christmas tree worked very well against Inter if people havent forgotten.

Lastly, the problem in the match against Palermo was that Pirlo was man marked and nullified. Does anyone really see Sissoko man-marking Pirlo? I don't.

Discuss, my subjects!

Good points boring, about the season not being "over" if we do lose...wont argue those.

As for Pirlo, it matters not to me if he plays or sits on the bench...whomever we play, isnt fit enuf IMO to make a difference vs Juve.

Though I am heartened by your post, I still have a dismal outlook for this fixture.

good posts

keep it up and give us something to enjoy ourselves with until sunday comes

Very good post from my yardy bredren Warro... truth be told we really need to win this match because of the many reasons Warro gave... and we need to win the uefa cup also to add it to our cabinet... Unfortunately Inter will only play two more champions league matches next year... and to salvage pride they will go all out for the league... i think we should strengthen our squad this winter....

Originally Posted by mrki

What Mystik and Al Fre suggested about Milan playing with 4-4-2 and Kaka' and Dinho playing wide of 2 DM'+s and 2 more forwards are n the team is impossible. I have to say im dissapointed by those visions of football.

Kaka' and Ropanldinho are not appropriate players to play in taht sistem and to add another two strikers to that. Then cannot cover the field well enough and eventually our midfield would consist of 2 players.

Ronaldinho is 100% unable to play any part of defensive phase, while to play Kaka' out wide on thr right is a sin! Plus twho strikers...impossible.

Juve with Nedved+Camoranesi are a different story, completely different.

That is the reason why Ranieri doesnt want Diego in Juve as he knows he will not chance the 4-4-2 sistem and Diego cannot play on the wing. That is also why Seba Giovinco has tactical problems in Juve. And that is why they didnt play like that when they had Zizou.

Dinho and Kaka' are both attacking midfielders wiothout ability to play strict zonal marking for long periods of time in the game. Like Boban, Rui Costa, Rivaldo etc.

Today Moggi said the same thing about Kaka'-Dinho situation as I've said few daays back - Dinho cannot follow Kaka's movements, its not a tactical problem oc X-mas tree, its the problem of Dinho's slow tempo and the unability to change sides and play as fast as Kaka'. A player like Ribery would be a digfferent story etc.

Our hope is to get Ronaldinho fit or MUCH fitter.

Last season Kaka played as secunda punta why not do it this season too, and play Roni as trequartista. Also Roni can be secunda punta and play Kaka at his favorite position trequartista. Carlo could try this

Sorry wrong topic

Remember the Milan-Inter game,what where you all saying:Lets hope for a draw blablabla.Dont forget this is a big game,and in big games we always play good.Against small teams our attitude was ****ty but in big games we can always count on Milan.Against Inter and Napoli we played superb and i expect the same perfomance on Sunday.Milan lives for this kind of matches,we can win from them and i expect we will.

Abbiati;Zambrotta,Maldini,Kaladze,Jankulovski;Flamini,Pirlo,Seedorf,Ambrosini;Kaka,Ronaldinho;Inzagh i.

I put 4 midfielders because i dont know who will play.Seedorf will be fit so he will start,but i dont know the condition of Pirlo.

We can win.We have Supperpippo upfront with Kaka and Dinho behind him who can finish a game with one moment.Zambro and Jankulovski can push good.Altough Kaladze almoust had cost us the win because his hands in the injury time he played great and together with Maldini he can handle Amauri.He has the body to do it.

And Manninger is good this season but it is still Manninger,he is crap and Abbiati is certainly better.