Banter 2009/2010

ppl are already calling for Huntelaar to be gone after just a handfull of games, but then we hope to sign someone from a different league and expect them to just have no trouble adjusting. for all we know, Fabiano or Dzeko would be struggling on this team too

i dont understand how why ppl want Rafinia for around 10 mil, when Motta would cost around 7. Motta has played at a big club in Italy (Roma) and is 23. why not buy Italian in this case?

Originally Posted by pirlofanusa

i dont understand how why ppl want Rafinia for around 10 mil, when Motta would cost around 7. Motta has played at a big club in Italy (Roma) and is 23. why not buy Italian in this case?

because he is Italian

Originally Posted by GeoTav

As Brasiliero said, and to make it short, the problem these last few years hasn't been the nationality of the players we bought but only their quality ...

We can buy players from South America, North America, Oceania, Asia, Africa, Europe, another planet, we don't care as long as they are quality players who will bring something to the club !!

Thanks to get my point, Geo...

Imo there are 4 type of players: The bad, regular, good and amazing... Doesn´t matter from where they are, but matter if they have the talent and mentality to play in a environement like Milan. It´s not only the talent what will goes to make a player(Italian, Brazilian, African) survive in a presure of a big club in Europe.

People fail to realize that Milan, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Liverpool, Barça and otherts had exceeded the barrier of the nationality. The world changed, and these teams(and others) are worldwide teams now.

Heck, even in Brazil you can find now kids that only support European teams(the nephew of my brother-in-law only support Barça), and this would be unimaginable 10 years ago.

Thats said, I agree that some teams need to do a effort to keep their roots, and thats why I´m always against Milan come to Brazil to purchase regular or good players(Juan Maldonaldo, Fernandinho, Marquinhos, Tiago neves, and the list goes on...). It´s in our DNA a to have a strong Italian contigent, and to keep that intact(with the absurd price of any Italian promise) you need to make a effrort to fill the "squad spots" with Italian players. Needless to say that imo they have to be at least good squad players to wear sacred Red&Black mantle.

Also, because I respect Milan DNA, it´s why I don´t bash Inter that much for the amount of foreigns in the team. It´s in their DNA( at least from what read), and thats was the reason because the team was formed. People that wanted to see foreigns playing for the team(was forbidden), leave and formed a new club.

But if one amazing players is avaliable, and he´s from another planet(like Geo said) we need to go for him. Send Braida to Mars, Galiani to Saturn(in a good way, since I know good people here that would send them now without the ticket to return ), but bring the best to a club where the fans demand the best. It´s simple...

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Thanks to get my point, Geo...

Imo there are 4 type of players: The bad, regular, good and amazing... Doesn´t matter from where they are, but matter if they have the talent and mentality to play in a environement like Milan. It´s not only the talent what will goes to make a player(Italian, Brazilian, African) survive in a presure of a big club in Europe.

People fail to realize that Milan, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Liverpool, Barça and otherts had exceeded the barrier of the nationality. The world changed, and these teams(and others) are worldwide teams now.

Reck, even in Brazil you can find now kids that only support European teams(the nephew of my brother-in-law only support Barça), and this would be unimaginable 10 years ago.

Thats said, I agree that some teams need to do a effort to keep their roots, and thats why I´m always against Milan come to Brazil to purchase regular or good players(Juan Maldonaldo, Fernandinho, Marquinhos, Tiago neves, and the list goes on...). It´s in our DNA a to have a strong Italian contigent, and to keep that intact(with the absurd price of any Italian promise) you need to make a effrort to fill the "squad spots" with Italian players. Needless to say that imo they have to be at least good squad players to wear sacred Red&Black mantle.

Also, because I respect Milan DNA, it´s why I don´t bash Inter that much for the amount of foreigns in the team. It´s in their DNA( at least from what read), and thats was the reason because the team was formed. People that wanted to see foreigns playing for the team(was forbidden), leave and formed a new club.

But if one amazing players is avaliable, and he´s from another planet(like Geo said) we need to go for him. Send Braida to Mars, Galiani to Saturn(in a good way, since I know good people here that would send them now without the ticket to return ), but bring the best to a club where the fans demand the best. It´s simple...

And I would also add that it's in the DNA of Milan to have a contingent of Italian players mixed with people from other countries (cycles: nowadays, it's Brazilians, it was players from Netherlands some times ago, etc).

It has always been like that ... and that always works (in all great teams).

Originally Posted by johncharles365

Dude i am not racist and

I didn´t call you a racist since I don´t know you in person.

I attack your post, because that was full of xenophobia arguments. Several bad things happened in the history of World because of lines of reasonings like that. A little look for what finished in 1945 can give you a picture of what I´m talking about... and thats just one example.

Do I believe a simple post in MM forum will do that again? Probaly not, but you speak what you want and you hears what you do not want. Simple as that.

Btw, I was hopping for a better list of, as you said: washout Brazilians in Europe is daunting even the most promising talents end up failing eventually. From what I understand, several aren´t even Brazilian. Whats your point?

Can you also clarify me about these names that you put in a a row? Pele Renato Neto Pedro Silva?? It´s one , two or three? Where they played? It´s Pelé the King that you talking about?

Btw, a kid that tore his 2 knees 2 years in a row, and broke a ankle in the other, and don´t have more condition to play, and a players that was real average is your list? I want a more substancial thing to debate.

If not, let´s move on...

Originally Posted by GeoTav

And I would also add that it's in the DNA of Milan to have a contingent of Italian players mixed with people from other countries (cycles: nowadays, it's Brazilians, it was players from Netherlands some times ago, etc).

It has always been like that ... and that always works (in all great teams).

Thanks for the reminder, Geo... and was at that time, in finals 80´s when I become a Milan fan.

Careca was in Napoli, Zico in Udinese, Falcão was the king of Rome, but It was that team without Brazlians that caught my eyes. Things you can´t explain, but that mixed team, as you said, was amazing. There was an aura of greatnesses(sp?) around them that caught me as a kid.

Quoting your last phrase: It has always been like that ... and that always works (in all great teams)

EDIT: Just now I read people asking me about Ederson, and I will write here because I share the same oppinion as Geotav... and I remember him since his days in Brazil youth NT. A good players, but not worth the price and Non-Eu spot.

Brasileiro, from what I've heard, it seems like Milan is changing the path, we'll count on the Italians. This summer Milan bought around 10 youngsters between 14-17 years old, litterally all the best Italian talents available at this age. The management hopes that in the future atleast 2 or 3 of them will develop and will be part of the first team for many years. If only one of them develops to the level of Pirlo, Gatusso or Nesta, it would be such a success, cuz these guys right now are so cheap, they almost don't cost anything.

But you're absolutely right, the talent is not enough. I haven't seen any of them on the field, but consider how the primavera is doing, I guess these guys have some talent. But I'm not sure whether the Milan coaches will be able to develop the right mentality in these guys.

I really hope that we will get a new talanted Brazilian player, who will worth the money we'd pay and he'll make the difference. That's how I see it: in the primavera we'll develop the squad players, and we'll take the difference makers from Brazil.

That's the reality, we can't afford to buy more than one South American player, not just becouse of the single non-EU spot we have. The problem is money, we don't have any. As I know, this summer we had only around 20-25 mln euro from Real Madrid (first part of Kaka's transfer) and we gave them back 15 mln for Huntelaar. So we got something like 5 mln for a winger, and since Oddo refused to be sold, we couldn't buy anybody...That's why we invented the problem with Sissokho's teeth, we tried to take him on loan...

We just don't have enough money, we can't afford to make another mistake, we can buy only one player for now, and we have to pray to qualify for 1/8 finals in CL, or else the only one coming would be Beckham...

I hope Braida will make the right choice.

Originally Posted by pirlofanusa

ppl are already calling for Huntelaar to be gone after just a handfull of games, but then we hope to sign someone from a different league and expect them to just have no trouble adjusting. for all we know, Fabiano or Dzeko would be struggling on this team too

Pirlofan, you know I was against Huntelaar purchase, but imo a players deserve at least one entire year in a club to show his worth. So, the only reason I´m in favour for him to leave, is if a W.C. is in the trade, if not, let the lad try to improve in Copa Italia...

Said that, Huntelaar need to show a lot more to you compare him with Dzeko and even more with Fabiano. You can see the difference on the team with Borrielo up front, and imo Huntelaar is a better goalscorer than italian.

But Huntelaar is being rubish, period. For much better pre-season games(and average by Milan standards) people that support Hunt were bashing Borrielo here. I don´t expect Hunt to be the best of the team, it would be unfair, but the offense improves a lot when he´s out. It´s cristal clear. Even a kid like Paloschi showed more than him comming of the bench.

So, let´s support the guy, but he also needs to do his part...

Originally Posted by pirlofanusa

i dont understand how why ppl want Rafinia for around 10 mil, when Motta would cost around 7. Motta has played at a big club in Italy (Roma) and is 23. why not buy Italian in this case?

I´m not a fan of Rafinha purchase as I said here, but if Motta wasn´t Italian, did you want him here? Don´t get me wrong, it´s a simple question, but what Motta have acomplished until now as a Roma player? One more time, I just want to know more about this guy, because of the few time I saw him in Roma, he really didn´t stood out..

Can you tell me more about him?

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

I didn´t call you a racist since I don´t know you in person.

I attack your post, because that was full of xenophobia arguments. Several bad things happened in the history of World because of lines of reasonings like that. A little look for what finished in 1945 can give you a picture of what I´m talking about... and thats just one example.

Do I believe a simple post in MM forum will do that again? Probaly not, but you speak what you want and you hears what you do not want. Simple as that.

Btw, I was hopping for a better list of, as you said: washout Brazilians in Europe is daunting even the most promising talents end up failing eventually. From what I understand, several aren´t even Brazilian. Whats your point?

Can you also clarify me about these names that you put in a a row? Pele Renato Neto Pedro Silva?? It´s one , two or three? Where they played? It´s Pelé the King that you talking about?

Btw, a kid that tore his 2 knees 2 years in a row, and broke a ankle in the other, and don´t have more condition to play, and a players that was real average is your list? I want a more substantial thing to debate.

If not, let´s move on...

I fail to see how that is a xenophobic argument i don't have a fear of the unknown that argument wasn't a attack of the lack of notability of the players just the fact that they had failed in Milan. I fail to see how it is prejudice to state that a lot of South American have failed in Europe we could spend the next two days going though a list of players like Alves (middleborough) Lucas Denilson probably Fabio at Manchester united. It would be a seriously pointless debate by definition these players aren't substancail as they washed out in their teens. The reason i included other South American players is because it is not just Brazilians youngsters who find it hard to establish themselves in Europe. If really want a long drawn out debate about Brazilians eventually failing in europe i more than willing to talk about Ronaldo who was briefly the best player in the world and probably the best striker in Brazilian history than after injuries and family problems began to have a inconsistent career and eventually failing to make a real impression in Milan or we can talk about Adriano one of the most promising players around in 04 than with this family tragedy and drunk with his own arrogance decided the party life was for him. Compare with the likes of Baggio Paulo Rossi and Zidane who were consistent throughout their careers.

Milan needs to have a strategy that helps Milan in the short term i can't see buying players who played a south American version of football all their lives and throwing them into European football in matter of days will help Milan. My arguements are born out of logic and it is not logical that Milan persists in buying mediocre players just because they are South American. It plain to see that Milan transfer strategy should be based on players qualities rather than there nationality instead we prefer South Americans instead of European talent, the most Extreme example of this was in 06/07 when Milan decided to buy Oliveira in the summer and Ronaldo in the winter and has a result completely missed out of Torres. the likes of Gilardino Oddo and Zambrotta have at least contributed to Milan while Oliveira Emerson and Roque Junior well never really performed

Originally Posted by vladomilan

i think Berlu should appoint Brasilero as a new AC MILAN scout

Originally Posted by 'The Bulldog'

Totally agree, should of been done ages ago!!

Originally Posted by Reza

I agree too but he can't stop posting when he gets the job

Originally Posted by GeoTav

Easy: create a private part of the forum for MilanMania members and give an account to people from our management ... Brasiliero would post his reports there, allowing us to react and our management to be aware of the work of Brasiliero ...

Who calls Galliani ?

Originally Posted by Reza

Excellent idea, I just called and left a message

I hope you guy saty with when I make my first mistake as a scout.

I don´t want to see a "Fora Brasileiro" thread My friend mrki need to be at my side at any cost. The guy is mean with his "enemies"

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

I hope you guy saty with when I make my first mistake as a scout.

I don´t want to see a "Fora Brasileiro" thread My friend mrki need to be at my side at any cost. The guy is mean with his "enemies"

If you were the next scout in Milan, we would just ask you to bring us only 2 Brazilian talents per season without any failure ...
And of course, a condition would be that one of the two talents has an European passport ...

If you couldn't do that, then you would be a bad scout !!

I don't know where this started being about nationality, but, AC Milan has always been a team that is Italian. I am not Italian, but I prefer seeing more Italian players in the squad than non-Italians. I do not want Milan to become like Arsenal or Inter, I think its important to maintain the traditions of a club. For Milan, that means having a good percentage of the team that is Italian. However, as a non-Italian, and someone who does not like the limitation of foreigners, I think it should be up to club, rather than the rules (though rules might be necessary, unfortunately) to maintain their character.

I think Milan's issue is not even about quality. Fine, Gila is a great example of an Italian player who did not do well when he came to Milan. I do not want Milan's transfer activities to be only Italian, though I think buying Italian might be better (simply because Italians are cheaper).

Milan's transfer problem is that we have not bought from within Serie A. Yes, there are Gilas, but there is a lot of problems when we try to rely on players who are adapting, and then shove them out. Take, Ricardo Oliveira, Huntelaar (so far), Flamini, as examples.

I am never against a Kaka, Pato, Shevchenko, coming to Milan. These are amazing players. I think the real issue is that Milan needs to grab more Serie A players. There is no guarantee that a player with Serie A will make it with Milan, Gila is an example of this fact. However, I think it is pretty logical and fair to say that a player coming from Serie A, regardless of nationality, will have an easier time to adjust than a player from outside of Serie A.

People prefer Rafinha because he seems attainable, Schalke and Rafinha have problems. Motta, despite his lack of play time, seems to be prized by Roma. Plus, Rafinha isn't cup-tied, and Motta is. I would prefer Motta over Rafinha, because of Motta's experience in Serie A, rather than his nationality. I rate Rafinha very highly, but Motta has fight and spirit to his game, and has shown great leadership qualities.

I would rather grab a player from Germany than Spain, for instance, because it seems that players from the Bundesliga adapt much easier to Serie A (and it seems, any league, really) than from La Liga.

Milan has not bought terrible quality. Huntelaar is not bad quality, neither was Ricardo Oliveira. Nor was Vogel, or Dhorosoo. Vogel and Dhoroso were successes in Milan (for their purpose: to add depth and give rest to Pirlo) but Ricardo's case is more complicated. Huntelaar? We have to wait and see, Crespo, who had tremendous amounts of Serie A experience, struggled to score a single goal for the first half of the season.

Brasileiro, I respect your opinions like everyone else on this board, and you really should quit whatever job it is your doing and go into scouting. I wish Egypt was as good as Brazil, and I can only dream of Egyptian players suiting up for Milan. However, I am worried about Milan's lack of talent recruitment from Serie A. It puts tremendous pressure on players to adapt. Do you think Kaka could have become the player he was without Milan having Rui Costa? Pato without Kaka or Ronaldo? Thiago Silva without Nesta? I don't think so.

It seems the difference between Milan buying Kaka and Pato, and potentially buying Hernanes and say, Giulano, is that they would be expected to come into a team that is not only struggling, but that they are expected as direct replacements. Kaka was never thought to be Rui Costa's replacement the season he signed, he was to be gradually let in. Neither Pato or Thiago Silva directly came into Milan's team, they both had to wait, which was to their great benefit.

I'd rather see Milan build this next generation on players who are more familiar with Serie A. I have no doubt that Hernanes or Giulano could be huge stars, nor do I think that they would fail necessarily at Milan. I just think our transfer policy should be directed differently. We should be trying to buy Santacroce instead of Naldo, Inler instead of Gago, and so on.

I would love for Milan to have a youth setup like Barca's, or like Milan's old system. I loved knowing that Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, and Albertini were all from Milan's own system. That's why I enjoy seeing Abate play for Milan, or the fact that Borriello, Antonini, and Oddo are all from Milan, hopefully Paloschi will feature for Milan as well. That being said, I would not mind having a Lionel Messi-type of player come through Milan's ranks. It's not about the nationality, but that he is from the club's own.

In terms of senior players, I think we should still be buying players from outside Serie A, it is that healthy mixture that makes football great. However, for Milan, we are struggling to replace the players who are the Serie A stalwarts, and I think that we need to step that up, so that we are not buying Bonera's and Favalli's to fill up our squad, but that we make our Huntelaar-level purchases not only some "exotic" player from another league, but that we can spend 15 million on Cigarini and Santacroce, and while not have players guaranteed to do well, but at least, have a higher chance that they will.

Originally Posted by Brasileiro

Pirlofan, you know I was against Huntelaar purchase, but imo a players deserve at least one entire year in a club to show his worth. So, the only reason I´m in favour for him to leave, is if a W.C. is in the trade, if not, let the lad try to improve in Copa Italia...

Said that, Huntelaar need to show a lot more to you compare him with Dzeko and even more with Fabiano. You can see the difference on the team with Borrielo up front, and imo Huntelaar is a better goalscorer than italian.

But Huntelaar is being rubish, period. For much better pre-season games(and average by Milan standards) people that support Hunt were bashing Borrielo here. I don´t expect Hunt to be the best of the team, it would be unfair, but the offense improves a lot when he´s out. It´s cristal clear. Even a kid like Paloschi showed more than him comming of the bench.

So, let´s support the guy, but he also needs to do his part...


I´m not a fan of Rafinha purchase as I said here, but if Motta wasn´t Italian, did you want him here? Don´t get me wrong, it´s a simple question, but what Motta have acomplished until now as a Roma player? One more time, I just want to know more about this guy, because of the few time I saw him in Roma, he really didn´t stood out..

Can you tell me more about him?

Ok I think that Borri holds the ball better than Huntelaar, but that Huntelaar isnt getting the service to succeed. Inzaghi is having the same problems, and one of the biggest is that R80 loses the ball a lot (mostly trying to do tricks)

If Motta was not Italian i would still want him, last year he played well at Roma when I watched. he pushes up well and defends well. There were many who felt that he was the best RB in Serie A last year. He was very good on the U-21 team, and was the captain of the team. this season after the coaching change in Rome he has fell out of favor for whatever reason, and i would love to have him

I found this online after the Inter-Roma game late last season-

"A note in closure. I mentioned in my preview of the Inter–Roma tactics that a duel which deserved to be kept an eye on was that between Marco Motta and Davide Santon. The contest did not disappoint. Both fullbacks were fantastic running down their respective wings, and watching them as they clashed against each other on the two ends of the pitch was a sight for sore eyes (in this writer’s opinion, it was the best thing that the match produced). Motta arguably came out on top - the cross for the first goal came from him, and it came after a show of skill the victim of which happened to be precisely Santon. It goes without saying that the two youngsters will have to keep up their performances from here until the end of the season and beyond, but if they do, then there is no reason in the world why we should not see them at the 2010 World Cup in the Azzurri shirt. The current fullbacks are old and a generational exchange is very much needed. If the Inter-Roma match is anything to go by, the prospect of such an exchange looks rosy."

[quote]

Originally Posted by johncharles365

I fail to see how that is a xenophobic argument i don't have a fear of the unknown that argument wasn't a attack of the lack of notability of the players just the fact that they had failed in Milan. I fail to see how it is prejudice to state that a lot of South American have failed in Europe we could spend the next two days going though a list of players like Alves (middleborough) Lucas Denilson probably Fabio at Manchester united. It would be a seriously pointless debate by definition these players aren't substancail as they washed out in their teens. The reason i included other South American players is because it is not just Brazilians youngsters who find it hard to establish themselves in Europe. If really want a long drawn out debate about Brazilians eventually failing in europe i more than willing to talk about Ronaldo who was briefly the best player in the world and probably the best striker in Brazilian history than after injuries and family problems began to have a inconsistent career and eventually failing to make a real impression in Milan or we can talk about Adriano one of the most promising players around in 04 than with this family tragedy and drunk with his own arrogance decided the party life was for him. Compare with the likes of Baggio Paulo Rossi and Zidane who were consistent throughout their careers.

What? Are you calling Fabio failure in Europe? A 19 yo that spent 90% first season without to play with a severe shoulder injure? C´mon thats not even rational... Unbelievble

Denilson isn´t a failure, he´s starter of Arsenal. Maybe you expect him to be a Brazilian Zidane, but do you know what, he´s a DM, and Wenger knows that.

Alves was a success in Eredivisie, but thats was his level. He was released here by his club. RELEASED... Even with that, he manage to shine in a good to great European league. And he had successe in Holland, you can´t deny that...

Lucas, learning a new position in League with absurde pace, just has one of his best game in his Liverpool era against a amazing team and midfield(carrick and Scholes), with hid coach and teamatees against the wall and you call him a failure? I follow EPL, and I know Lucas is the scape goat of Pool and a target by people like Andy Gray, but even the KOP that booed him last season are singing his chant now . How a guy that turn around the amount adversity this kid had in EPL can be labeled a failure. A 22 yo failure?? Go here(In RAWK) and read how Lucas is changing the oppinions about him before you post this nonsense:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/...pic=248994.760

Now the best part... You called Ronaldo Nazario a failure in Europe? Even Maldini called him the best player he faced after Maradona... What more I can say, johncharles365?!?! After you throw Ronaldo name as a guy that FAIL(unbelievble) in Europe I give up. You won, congratulations...

[quote=Brasileiro;553482]

What? Are you calling Fabio failure in Europe? A 19 yo that spent 90% first season without to play with a severe shoulder injure? C´mon thats not even rational... Unbelievble

Denilson isn´t a failure, he´s starter of Arsenal. Maybe you expect him to be a Brazilian Zidane, but do you know what, he´s a DM, and Wenger knows that.

Alves was a success in Eredivisie, but thats was his level. He was released here by his club. RELEASED... Even with that, he manage to shine in a good to great European league. And he had successe in Holland, you can´t deny that...

Lucas, learning a new position in League with absurde pace, just has one of his best game in his Liverpool era against a amazing team and midfield(carrick and Scholes), with hid coach and teamatees against the wall and you call him a failure? I follow EPL, and I know Lucas is the scape goat of Pool and a target by people like Andy Gray, but even the KOP that booed him last season are singing his chant now . How a guy that turn around the amount adversity this kid had in EPL can be labeled a failure. A 22 yo failure?? Go here(In RAWK) and read how Lucas is changing the oppinions about him before you post this nonsense:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/...pic=248994.760

Now the best part... You called Ronaldo Nazario a failure in Europe? Even Maldini called him the best player he faced after Maradona... What more I can say, johncharles365?!?! After you throw Ronaldo name as a guy that FAIL(unbelievble) in Europe I give up. You won, congratulations...

for god sake i said that Ronaldo failed for Milan my argument is that the was unable to maintain a certain level of performance later on at Madrid and in 08 for milan his career thus eventually failing in europe. And only said that because you said that you wanted a long drawn out debate.

as for fabio i said that he probably will fail has he doesn't get enough first team football Denilson was used as a cmf it only now that they have adapted him as a holding midfield player because they have no one else as for lucas he is getting crucified every time he plays he will not succeed at liverpool it is so plain to see. Alves as soon as he moved to big league he just flopped and for a player that cost 14 million and was in mid twenties that is unbelievable.

Mate i was going to give up but you have spurred him you just finding silly excuses to avoid the points of my argument please i need to teach you football and strategy and probably by the sounds of it english you shouldn't give up you need help. I think you know that Milan should buy the likes of Hernanes and co and are just trying to avoid the debate